list going to the dogs

[Philip S Tellis]

looking at posts from the last few days, it seems that there is no more
quality left in this list.

We have people asking the list for jobs (many have been rejected before
reaching the list). We have people searching for other people. To both
kinds of people, there are sections in your local newspaper that deal
with this. Unfortunately, we will always have people who post without
subject lines, or subject lines that says "Help" and those who ask the
list to unsubscribe them.

To those who post asking for a job:

The lug has a lot of work if you want it. The website needs to be
maintained, meetings need to be arranged, workshops need to be arranged,
a lot of promotion and advocacy has to be done. Are you interested?
You will not be paid for this ... ever.

For programming jobs, there is also a lot of Free software that needs to
be developed. You will find projects on sourceforge, savannah and
freshmeat. You will probably not get paid for this either.

To those who want information urgently - pay for commercial support. To
those who complain that no one has responded to their mail - have
patience and maybe rethink your posting strategy.

To those who post without a subject -

To those who want help - try one of the following:
http://www.helmeharlan.com
http://www.helpmefind.com
http://www.helpme2learn.com
http://www.helpmelaw.com

To those who want to unsubscribe, the address is linuxers-***@mm....

The list software does not understand natural language. Do not say
please unsubscribe me. Follow the instructions that you received when
you subscribed. If you deleted those instructions, bad on you.

To those who ask for sample source code - this list is not to be used
for doing your homework. If you need sample code to learn from - the
web has Terabytes of it. It is better for you to search for it rather
than ask the members of this list to search for you.

To those who are unaware of all the programs installed on their
system... how can you install something without knowing what you're
installing? There's hope yet. Get a list of all programs in /bin,
/usr/bin, /usr/local/bin, /sbin and /usr/sbin and read the man pages for
them. Read the man pages for whatever is mentioned in the See Also
section of any other man page.

Here's a tip. If a man page says something like foo(8), it means you
have to do man 8 foo.

If there is no man page, command --help often works. If it doesn't, run
the program and see what happens :D. Don't do this as root. In fact,
maybe create a temporary account and do it in there (I wouldn't).

Finally, before you post, and I repeat, *before*. Search the web,
search your hard disk, search the archives. Do everything possible
to find your answer without posting. Only if you don't find a solution
should you post to the list.

If, OTOH, you find a solution, but had a really hard time finding it,
*and* it was not listed in the list archives, then feel free to post the
solution to the list.

Finally, don't ask for help on Linux 8.0. No one has it... yet.

Philip

[Clinton Goveas]

Who let the dogs out? On a more serious note, it is good that some of
these issues did come out so that we get a chance to see where we stand
on each of them.

[snip]
1. "looking at posts from the last few days, it seems that there is no
more quality left in this list."
2. "Unfortunately, we will always have people who post without subject
lines, or subject lines that says 'Help'"

So this list is only for sys admins? The other Linux users should seek

help or information elsewhere? People don't discuss issues here to
impress others with "quality". They have problems and ask for solutions,
and I think this makes this list a good source of tactical knowledge in
the Linux area. If you take that away, this list is pretty much devoid
of utility.

Common questions can be clubbed together to form FAQs, which new

members should see before they arrive at the sign-in info page for this
list. This would do away with Phillip's common nagging questions
problem.

[snip]
"For programming jobs, there is also a lot of Free software that needs
to be developed. You will find projects on sourceforge, savannah and
freshmeat. You will probably not get paid for this ..."

I'm sure new converts will find this extremely encouraging.

[snip]
"To those who want information urgently - pay for commercial support."

Once again this list is losing out on tactical Linux knowledge if

commercial companies solve those problems. They obviously will not share
their solution with us here.

[snip]
"Finally, don't ask for help on Linux 8.0. No one has it... yet."

Dude, whats Linux 8.0? If its new, I'd like to hear about it. Wouldn't

you?

Best wishes,
Clinton Goveas
http://www.clintongoveas.com

---
"Life. Liberty. Pursuit of Happiness."



-----Original Message-----
From: linuxers-***@mm.ilug-bom.org.in
[mailto:linuxers-***@mm.ilug-bom.org.in] On Behalf Of Philip S Tellis
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 7:52 PM
To: Linux Users
Subject: [ILUG-BOM] list going to the dogs


looking at posts from the last few days, it seems that there is no more
quality left in this list.

We have people asking the list for jobs (many have been rejected before
reaching the list). We have people searching for other people. To both
kinds of people, there are sections in your local newspaper that deal
with this. Unfortunately, we will always have people who post without
subject lines, or subject lines that says "Help" and those who ask the
list to unsubscribe them.

To those who post asking for a job:

The lug has a lot of work if you want it. The website needs to be
maintained, meetings need to be arranged, workshops need to be arranged,
a lot of promotion and advocacy has to be done. Are you interested?
You will not be paid for this ... ever.

For programming jobs, there is also a lot of Free software that needs to
be developed. You will find projects on sourceforge, savannah and
freshmeat. You will probably not get paid for this either.

To those who want information urgently - pay for commercial support. To

those who complain that no one has responded to their mail - have
patience and maybe rethink your posting strategy.

To those who post without a subject -

To those who want help - try one of the following:
http://www.helmeharlan.com
http://www.helpmefind.com
http://www.helpme2learn.com
http://www.helpmelaw.com

To those who want to unsubscribe, the address is linuxers-***@mm....

The list software does not understand natural language. Do not say
please unsubscribe me. Follow the instructions that you received when
you subscribed. If you deleted those instructions, bad on you.

To those who ask for sample source code - this list is not to be used
for doing your homework. If you need sample code to learn from - the
web has Terabytes of it. It is better for you to search for it rather
than ask the members of this list to search for you.

To those who are unaware of all the programs installed on their
system... how can you install something without knowing what you're
installing? There's hope yet. Get a list of all programs in /bin,
/usr/bin, /usr/local/bin, /sbin and /usr/sbin and read the man pages for

them. Read the man pages for whatever is mentioned in the See Also
section of any other man page.

Here's a tip. If a man page says something like foo(8), it means you
have to do man 8 foo.

If there is no man page, command --help often works. If it doesn't, run

the program and see what happens :D. Don't do this as root. In fact,
maybe create a temporary account and do it in there (I wouldn't).

Finally, before you post, and I repeat, *before*. Search the web,
search your hard disk, search the archives. Do everything possible
to find your answer without posting. Only if you don't find a solution
should you post to the list.

If, OTOH, you find a solution, but had a really hard time finding it,
*and* it was not listed in the list archives, then feel free to post the

solution to the list.

Finally, don't ask for help on Linux 8.0. No one has it... yet.

Philip
--
Did you hear that two rabbits escaped from the zoo and so far they have
only recaptured 116 of them?

[Satya]

Post by Clinton Goveas
2. "Unfortunately, we will always have people who post without subject
lines, or subject lines that says 'Help'"

So this list is only for sys admins? The other Linux users should seek

help or information elsewhere? People don't discuss issues here to
impress others with "quality". They have problems and ask for solutions,
and I think this makes this list a good source of tactical knowledge in
the Linux area. If you take that away, this list is pretty much devoid
of utility.

They should use a more descriptive subject line than "help".

Post by Clinton Goveas

Common questions can be clubbed together to form FAQs, which new

members should see before they arrive at the sign-in info page for this
list. This would do away with Phillip's common nagging questions
problem.

Alright. When are you publishing ilugbom faq 0.1?

Post by Clinton Goveas
"To those who want information urgently - pay for commercial support."

Once again this list is losing out on tactical Linux knowledge if

commercial companies solve those problems. They obviously will not share
their solution with us here.

The operative word is "urgently". Too many times we have people
posting asking for urgent help. The rest of us can't drop everything
to help people who expect immediate help.

Post by Clinton Goveas
"Finally, don't ask for help on Linux 8.0. No one has it... yet."

Dude, whats Linux 8.0? If its new, I'd like to hear about it. Wouldn't

you?

That's the point.

Please fix your quoting style. The way I have done it is a more
acceptable way. You should also include only the relevant parts of
previous messages.

[Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe]

Post by Clinton Goveas
Who let the dogs out? On a more serious note, it is good that some of
these issues did come out so that we get a chance to see where we stand
on each of them.

First of all, you seem to be using a rather strange quoting style. The
string "> " is considered the default leadin for lines that are
quoted from earlier messages. Most mail clients are designed to
recognise this leadin and use a different style to render quoted text.

Also please do not just put your reply on top of someone else's mail
... a lot of people have been doing that lately. It really hurts the
mail digest that some people read. Also, such a style leads to
unnecessarily long mails that have very little signal to noise ratio.

Post by Clinton Goveas
So this list is only for sys admins? The other Linux users should seek
help or information elsewhere? People don't discuss issues here to
impress others with "quality". They have problems and ask for solutions,
and I think this makes this list a good source of tactical knowledge in
the Linux area. If you take that away, this list is pretty much devoid
of utility.

The ultimate selling point of free software has been the vast user
community that is ready to help and really really comprehensive
documentation that _does_ work. Enough people have put in enough
effort to generate documentation that can take care of almost all
questions that a lay user could possibly ask. People should atleast
take an equivalent amount of effort to first search for documentation!
If everyone starts asking every little question on the list, will any
useful work ever get done?

By "tactical knowledge" I assume you mean short-term, troubleshooting
capability. Do you mean to say that people on this list are here to
solve every little problem that comes along for Joe Ramaswamy, the
newbie? First try to solve the problem yourself - search on google,
look at the documentation. If you still can't post here describing
what you did, and clearly stating what went wrong. If people can help
and have the time, they will.

NOTE: "You" symbolises any general user, not just Clinton Goveas.

Post by Clinton Goveas
Common questions can be clubbed together to form FAQs, which new
members should see before they arrive at the sign-in info page for this
list. This would do away with Phillip's common nagging questions
problem.

Take cover, people! He abused the "P"-word!!! :-D

People don't even read the list guidelines that are sent to them when
they sign in. You expect them to read an FAQ _before_ they join, which
probably answers questions that they don't even know exist??

Sameer.

[t***@media.mit.edu]

Hey philip,
good-morning to our dear task master , dear list memebers....and praise to lord divine....;)

Lemme do me lil bit to get the ball rolling and have a houdini put us on a fast track.

Luggers......there are two big events being organsied in karnataka. A Workshop in Karnataka and one at Belgaum. For the one at Hubli i need more speakers and luggers who can take practical classes educating students via installing/debugging gnu-linux.

Some hard core geeks to spread some hacker culture are called for. Please lemme know asap as i have to get the tickets booked for this weekend.

Trevor

[Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe]

Post by t***@media.mit.edu
Some hard core geeks to spread some hacker culture are called for.
Please lemme know asap as i have to get the tickets booked for this
weekend.

Hey c'mon Trevor! Not only do you hijack another thread to put out
your announcement, you also don't set a correct line length. If oldies
start disrespecting the list guidelines, who do we look up to? :-)

Sameer.

[Amol Hatwar]

*chop*

Post by t***@media.mit.edu
Some hard core geeks to spread some hacker culture are called for. Please

lemme know asap as i have to get the tickets booked for this weekend.
That sounds like most of us here ;). Anyway if you can let me know the dates
I can confirm my availability for the same.

Warm wishes,

Amol Hatwar.

[t***@media.mit.edu]

Hey philip,
good-morning to our dear task master , dear list memebers....and praise to lord divine....;)

Lemme do me lil bit to get the ball rolling and have a houdini put us on a fast track.

Luggers......there are two big events being organsied in karnataka. A Workshop in Hubli, Karnataka and one at Belgaum. For the one at Hubli i need more speakers and luggers who can take practical classes educating students via installing/debugging gnu-linux and a whole host of other hands-on tutorials.

Some hard core geeks to spread some hacker culture are called for. Please lemme know asap as i have to get the tickets booked for this weekend.

My land line nos are 28312930/31 and cell is 9820349221. Expecting the luggers who know the subject well to pitch in...:). And ofcourse prevent this list going to the mutts....:). Thanks to our task master...:)

Trevor

[Tahir Hashmi]

On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:51:49 +0530 (IST)

Post by Philip S Tellis
looking at posts from the last few days, it seems that there is no more
quality left in this list.

[snip]

IMHO the reason for the list going to the dogs is that there are a lot
many first-timers seeking help from the LUG, and this may be the first
ML that they join. This is a heartening indicator of Linux getting
acceptance into the so-called mainstream.

I've heard of a few mailing lists where the subscribers themselves
need to reply to their first post before it gets distributed. If it is
possible to do something like this for ILUG-Bom, an automated response
can be sent by the mailer for the very first post of a new subscriber,
and the first post may not be distributed.

The automated response would remind the poster of the guidelines and
have pointers to RFC 1855 etc. If the OP still thinks that his query
is appropriate, he may post it again, this time without any policing
from the mailer. I hope this would catch a lot of newbies looking for
urgent help on Linux 8.0 that they might have got from a long lost
friend (btw, RHL 9 is due out 2003-04 to make matters worse :p).

Perhaps, sending the guidelines at the time of subscription
should then be discontinued because often subscribers hang on for a
while to observe the activity and by the time they come around to
posting something, the mail containing the guidelines has long been
deleted.

Getting a little more strict, the ML software can reject and send an
autoresponse to mails that don't contain any subject or contain taboo
words like "urgent" or "help" (without 3 other words or so). But I
guess this option might have been explored before.

Note: These suggestions should not be taken as advocacy against
freedom of speech.

[Ravindra Jaju]

Post by Tahir Hashmi
On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:51:49 +0530 (IST)

Post by Philip S Tellis
looking at posts from the last few days, it seems that there is no more
quality left in this list.

[snip]
IMHO the reason for the list going to the dogs is that there are a lot
many first-timers seeking help from the LUG, and this may be the first
ML that they join. This is a heartening indicator of Linux getting
acceptance into the so-called mainstream.

Once more ... something some of us had proposed quite some back ..

Here it comes.

fork(); fork();

1] Newbies
2] General
3] Geeks

Please!

[Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe]

Post by Ravindra Jaju
fork(); fork();
1] Newbies
2] General
3] Geeks

Do the numbers justify the fork? Are there too many geeks or too many
newbies that are so distant from each other that they want to be on
separate lists?

I believe the real problem here is inproper initiation into the USENET
culture ... the idea about making a first-time poster moderate his own
mail is really good ... some newsgroups already do that, I believe. We
just need to make people understand the new culture they are moving
into when they try GNU/Linux for the first time.

I suggest another idea ... something that we do here at KReSIT. When
someone sends a mail to the list that doesn't fit the guidelines,
_everyone_ should mail the poster directly saying why they think the
mail is not good. I use a pre-written template to do this at KReSIT,
no need to waste time typing things out again and again. Just make
sure send the mail to the poster and not the list!

That, coupled with a good verbose rant on the list once in a while
should be enough, I think. Philip had promised long ago that he would
regularly post Tom Christiansen's mail here, but seems he doesn't want
to do that.

Sameer.

[Ravindra Jaju]

Post by Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe

Post by Ravindra Jaju
fork(); fork();
1] Newbies
2] General
3] Geeks

Do the numbers justify the fork? Are there too many geeks or too many
newbies that are so distant from each other that they want to be on
separate lists?

There's no relation between no. of people and no. of lists.
It just gives *me* the flexibility to read mails I'm interested in
at any given time. Reply to those which I think I can reply to.
And ignore (even if it is by not/un subscribing) to some kinds of emails
when I think I am too busy.

Post by Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe
I believe the real problem here is inproper initiation into the USENET
culture ... the idea about making a first-time poster moderate his own
mail is really good ... some newsgroups already do that, I believe. We
just need to make people understand the new culture they are moving
into when they try GNU/Linux for the first time.

That's ok. Let people learn the proper culture the harder way, or the
easier way, or whatever. I'm not at all concerned. *When* I *am* concerned,
I'll take some time off to talk to some of the guys.

Post by Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe
I suggest another idea ... something that we do here at KReSIT. When
someone sends a mail to the list that doesn't fit the guidelines,
_everyone_ should mail the poster directly saying why they think the
mail is not good. I use a pre-written template to do this at KReSIT,
no need to waste time typing things out again and again. Just make
sure send the mail to the poster and not the list!

That's not always feasible for everyone. No one has that much time,
or energy.

Or, maybe, I should just take a break and unsubscribe. And ask *you*
once in a while about any interesting happenings ;-)

Ok guys. Me taking an off for a few days. Will come back after a break :)

[Tahir Hashmi]

On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 11:48:07 +0530

Post by Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe

Post by Ravindra Jaju
fork(); fork();
1] Newbies
2] General
3] Geeks

With all due respect, I'd like to point out that segregation on the
basis of a user's level of knowledge is plain wrong and
counter-productive. It's wrong because:

- a user may not be able to judge which list to join based on a
self-evaluation, w/o knowing the kind of discussions taking place on
the list. For me the prospect of trawling through the archives just
to look at the level of discussions is rather repulsive.

- the user may not get a migration path that a general purpose ML
offers. Looking back at the difference in the kind of mails that I
used to send when I joined and now, there's a perceptible difference
(for the better, I hope :p). I could also observe the same with some
other regulars who joined after me as total newbies and worked their
way up to be contributors to meaningful discussions.

It's counter-productive because without many geeks lurking around the
newbie list, people won't get to know about the non-existence of Linux
8.0, they would sulk at Linux because it uses a lot of precious little
RAM while the abundantly available swap stays unused etc. Unless some
geek takes up the cause of educating the newbies - something that the
current list also handles nicely.

Post by Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe
I suggest another idea ... something that we do here at KReSIT. When
someone sends a mail to the list that doesn't fit the guidelines,
_everyone_ should mail the poster directly saying why they think the
mail is not good. I use a pre-written template to do this at KReSIT,
no need to waste time typing things out again and again. Just make
sure send the mail to the poster and not the list!

This practice is also followed on comp.lang.c++.moderated (if the
message gets beyond the moderators, that is). I agree that this could
be fine with two exceptions:

- not everyone should remind the OP of the guidelines
- the reminder should be posted on the list and no one should bother
replying to a poster who's been reminded (or reply privately).

A polite reminder and general ignorance by the members does make a
poster review his/her stance.

Post by Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe
That, coupled with a good verbose rant on the list once in a while
should be enough, I think.

How about taking turns at it >:)

[v***@softhome.net]

Post by Ravindra Jaju

Post by Tahir Hashmi
On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:51:49 +0530 (IST)

Post by Philip S Tellis
looking at posts from the last few days, it seems that there is no more
quality left in this list.

[snip]
IMHO the reason for the list going to the dogs is that there are a lot
many first-timers seeking help from the LUG, and this may be the first
ML that they join. This is a heartening indicator of Linux getting
acceptance into the so-called mainstream.

Once more ... something some of us had proposed quite some back ..
Here it comes.
fork(); fork();
1] Newbies
2] General
3] Geeks
Please!

Seeing the increasing number of members subscribing to this list, this
might make sense. But i doubt it will help solve the problem. Making members
aware of the guidelines is a better idea!!! But How to do that is the
question?? :)

Vinayak Hegde
APGDST Student
NCST-JUHU

[Manish Jethani]

Post by Ravindra Jaju
Here it comes.
fork(); fork();
1] Newbies
2] General
3] Geeks

I've been on the linux-bangalore mailing lists for like 3 months
now. We have separate lists for tech, non-tech, programming,
etc. Now that I'm busy, I've got myself unsubscribed from all
but the tech list. See, it's convenient!

Also, the first post of a new subscriber is moderated (was kind
of frustrating for me :) ). But once you've "proved" yourself,
no moderation for you.

-Manish

[Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe]

Post by Manish Jethani
I've been on the linux-bangalore mailing lists for like 3 months
now. We have separate lists for tech, non-tech, programming,
etc. Now that I'm busy, I've got myself unsubscribed from all
but the tech list. See, it's convenient!

tech, non-tech etc make sense ... just like LIG, LIH and LIP. But
newbie and expert ... how do you differentiate between that! I guess I
could call myself an expert, but when I try something for the first
time, like squid do I post to the newbie list? And will there be
guidelines for kicking people off the experts list? And will experts
ever bother to read mails on the newbie list? How will the newbies get
the hang of things in that case?

Sameer.

[Ravindra Jaju]

Post by Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe
tech, non-tech etc make sense ... just like LIG, LIH and LIP. But
newbie and expert ... how do you differentiate between that! I guess I
could call myself an expert, but when I try something for the first
time, like squid do I post to the newbie list? And will there be
guidelines for kicking people off the experts list? And will experts
ever bother to read mails on the newbie list? How will the newbies get
the hang of things in that case?

Don't take the names too seriously.
tecþ, non-tech, lig, lip, lig .. all are fine!

[Amol Hatwar]

*snip*> fork(); fork();

Post by Ravindra Jaju
1] Newbies
2] General
3] Geeks

I'd go with something similar.

Regards,

Amol Hatwar.

[v***@softhome.net]

Post by Tahir Hashmi
On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:51:49 +0530 (IST)

Post by Philip S Tellis
looking at posts from the last few days, it seems that there is no more
quality left in this list.

[snip]

Post by Tahir Hashmi
I've heard of a few mailing lists where the subscribers themselves
need to reply to their first post before it gets distributed. If it is
possible to do something like this for ILUG-Bom, an automated response
can be sent by the mailer for the very first post of a new subscriber,
and the first post may not be distributed.
The automated response would remind the poster of the guidelines and
have pointers to RFC 1855 etc. If the OP still thinks that his query
is appropriate, he may post it again, this time without any policing
from the mailer. I hope this would catch a lot of newbies looking for
urgent help on Linux 8.0 that they might have got from a long lost
friend (btw, RHL 9 is due out 2003-04 to make matters worse :p).

This is actually a pretty good idea.

Post by Tahir Hashmi
Getting a little more strict, the ML software can reject and send an
autoresponse to mails that don't contain any subject or contain taboo
words like "urgent" or "help" (without 3 other words or so). But I
guess this option might have been explored before.

That brings us again to the topic of "censorship". Most of us would vote for
a user moderated mailing list. Our only safeguard are aware members.

Vinayak Hegde
APGDST Student
NCST-JUHU

[Ninad Purohit]

guess we should congratulate ourselves
if the list is going to the dogs;then ilug-bom has far
more reach than it could ever have expected
ilug-bom has done ground-breaking work in taking linux
to masses and the other species.
i reckon if the dogs r taking to linux their masters
can't be far behind.
and regarding linux 8; ....i've read somewhere that
one human year equals seven dog years so what is linux
2.4.x to us might actually be linux 8+ to the dogs
considering the no of years linux has been in
development .the dogs must have spent more years in
linux development than what we humans have.
So people the moral of the story is, the man's best
friend has become friendlier and linux savvy.
i wish my mom would let me have a dog, i could ask him
my linux doubts


=====
ninad purohit
ninadonline(at)yahoo(dot)co(dot)in
have a nice day :-)

________________________________________________________________________
Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV.
visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com

[Nikhil D. Kikkeri]

Post by Clinton Goveas
[snip]
"Finally, don't ask for help on Linux 8.0. No one has it... yet."

Dude, whats Linux 8.0? If its new, I'd like to hear about it.

the linux kernel version 8, i think i will have kids in school by the time
kernel version 8 is released.

_________________________________________________________________
Find a partner. For life. http://www.shaadi.com/ptnr.php?ptnr=hmlql
***@Shaadi.com

[q***@softhome.net]

Post by Philip S Tellis
looking at posts from the last few days, it seems that there is no more
quality left in this list.

wOw !

Post by Philip S Tellis
[ snip ]
Philip

[Aseem Rane]

[Biju G C]

[Sachin Rase]

ya it is time to have separate mailing list

Post by Amol Hatwar
*snip*> fork(); fork();

Post by Ravindra Jaju
1] Newbies
2] General
3] Geeks

if u can add please for "commerical mailing list"
as job [or some thing similar ]

Post by Amol Hatwar
I'd go with something similar.

[Satya]

FWIW, I'm voting *against* separate lists. I'm for one list. (Or two,
one regular one jobs/commercial. That's what UUASC does.)

[Ravindra Jaju]

Post by Satya
FWIW, I'm voting *against* separate lists. I'm for one list. (Or two,
one regular one jobs/commercial. That's what UUASC does.)

What's UUASC and how does it in any way affect our behaviour?

If you have more convincing arguments, please put forth.

[Satya]

Post by Ravindra Jaju

Post by Satya
FWIW, I'm voting *against* separate lists. I'm for one list. (Or two,
one regular one jobs/commercial. That's what UUASC does.)

What's UUASC and how does it in any way affect our behaviour?

unix users association of southern california. It doesn't.

Post by Ravindra Jaju
If you have more convincing arguments, please put forth.

That's how I feel. I did say I was voting. I did not say I was arguing
(as in "debate" not as in "fight").

[Ravindra Jaju]

Post by Satya

Post by Ravindra Jaju

Post by Satya
FWIW, I'm voting *against* separate lists. I'm for one list. (Or two,
one regular one jobs/commercial. That's what UUASC does.)

What's UUASC and how does it in any way affect our behaviour?

unix users association of southern california. It doesn't.

The content of your mail *implied* that since UUASC does it, it's
a good model to follow. Hence the question. Otherwise, how is the
statement 'That's what UUASC does.' related to this post?

Post by Satya

Post by Ravindra Jaju
If you have more convincing arguments, please put forth.

That's how I feel. I did say I was voting. I did not say I was arguing
(as in "debate" not as in "fight").

But, if I am asking for forking with reasons, shouldn't you too give
reasons in support of your views? Doesn't it make sense? Your mail is
useful input in a 'poll', but doesn't help arrive at any conclusions in
this thread/debate.

Of course, to make things clear (as was implied in another mail), nothing
like a 'dogfight' here.

I think we have lost the art of arguing, assuming that arguing and confronting
are synonymous. No!

[Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe]

Post by Ravindra Jaju
But, if I am asking for forking with reasons, shouldn't you too give
reasons in support of your views? Doesn't it make sense? Your mail is
useful input in a 'poll', but doesn't help arrive at any conclusions in
this thread/debate.

Ok lets see if we can put things clearly ... you suggest that we split
the list into the equivalent of LIP, LIH and LIG. You also seem to
claim this is _not_ based on whether a person is a newbie or an expert
(by expert, I assume a person who knows how to use mailing lists,
newsgroups. FAQs and all other resources like documentation
effectively.)

But the way I see it, splitting will only create three more places
where clueless individuals will continue posting mails in crappy
format. How does your suggestion of splitting the list help? If you
only want the list to be separated in order to separate technical
help, general posts and developers then I don't oppose it, although I
don't see how it will be useful given the very small active membership
on this list.

Also sad to see that some members continue to top-post inspite of a
similar discussion earlier this year when things were made as clear as
can be about quoting and replying.

Sameer.

[Satya]

Post by Ravindra Jaju
The content of your mail *implied* that since UUASC does it, it's
a good model to follow. Hence the question. Otherwise, how is the
statement 'That's what UUASC does.' related to this post?

UUASC is a vaguely similar organisation. The method works for them. It
may work for us.

Post by Ravindra Jaju
But, if I am asking for forking with reasons, shouldn't you too give
reasons in support of your views? Doesn't it make sense? Your mail is

Only if I want to _convince_ you :-)

Splitting a list based on anything other than commercial/noncommercial
does not make sense to me. The job split is the only concrete split
that I can think of. How do you say whether a question is general or
technical or what? A commercial message is easier to identify as being
commercial.

Post by Ravindra Jaju
Of course, to make things clear (as was implied in another mail), nothing
like a 'dogfight' here.

Certainly not. Some people get strange ideas.

Post by Ravindra Jaju
I think we have lost the art of arguing, assuming that arguing and confronting
are synonymous. No!

That was a point I tried to make earlier. Forget confrontation, I
didn't even want to argue.

[Kapil Karekar]

Hi Luggers,

I understand that new users are not following the list guidelines. Much to the
ire of the rest of the list. However I do not agree with the proposal to
fork() the list.

We must understand that the world around us is rapidly changing. For years we
have been regarded as a bunch of geeks who have no place in the commercial
world. Now people have started recognizing FLOSS as a viable alternative to
proprietary software. Particularly the student community and SMEs have
started migrating to the FLOSS platform. The large number of newbies joining
the list is a clear indication of this. This is a very healthy sign. It's now
upon us how we react to it.

We can either chastise them and relegate them to a list where they will have
nobody to look up to ... or we could assimilate them into the mainstream by
making them understand our paradigm. The first option is easy ... however it
is the second option that will make a difference.

I suggest that we have this discussion at the next GLUG meet. There we can
listen to all the different viewpoints that we have and reach a consensus. So
make sure that you don't miss the next GLUG meet. If you miss the GLUG meet
then don't crib that your viewpoint was not taken into consideration. The
next GLUG meet is to be held at HBCSE, Mankhurd on 13th April 2003 at 1600
hours. Agenda for the meeting and the directions for HBCSE will be posted on
the list and the GLUG site soon.

Happy hacking !!
Kapil Karekar
- the lonely webmaster of the GLUG site :))
Mail me at: kapil {at} libretech {dot} com

[Saswata Banerjee & Associates]

Actually, it would be best if we can have one mailing list, but give options
which force people to either put

[Commercial] or
[OffTopic] or
[Technical] or
[General]

(If possible), it should not accept mails without the classification.
And I defitely thing the system should bounce all mails that do not have a
subject or just says "Help"

Regards
saswata
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sachin Rase" <***@unitek.co.in>
To: <***@mm.ilug-bom.org.in>
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] Re: list going to the dogs

Post by Sachin Rase
ya it is time to have separate mailing list

Post by Amol Hatwar
*snip*> fork(); fork();

Post by Ravindra Jaju
1] Newbies
2] General
3] Geeks

if u can add please for "commerical mailing list"
as job [or some thing similar ]

Post by Amol Hatwar
I'd go with something similar.

--
Regards
----------------
Sachin Rase
Unitek-India-Team
--
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers

[Parag Shah]

Post by Saswata Banerjee & Associates
Actually, it would be best if we can have one mailing list, but give options
which force people to either put
[Commercial] or
[OffTopic] or
[Technical] or
[General]

Seems like a good idea to start with. Will let us stay away from the
overhead (may be debatable since some people may not find this an
overhead, and some people will...) of creating multiple lists. Instead
of maintaining multiple list subscriptions we can maintain filters. If
the need arises we can always add more categories without the need to
create more lists. Offcourse we will have to hope that people properly
categorize their mails... and not put mails with commercial content in
the [technical] category. We can start with this approach and then scale
up to multiple lists if this approach presents drawbacks that can be
addressed with multiple lists. In any case instead of debating
endlessly... lets decide on an immediate plan and implement it. I think
we have some basic options:
a> Let things be as they are
b> Have multiple lists
c> Have one list with a category in the subject line.

If anyone wishes to add more options... please do so.
Lets decide on a last date to add more options (how about 31st March ?)
and a last date to vote on them (3rd April ?)
We can then implement the result of the vote.

regards
Parag

[kishor bhagwat]

this post is going to a dogfight now...;)
guys relax...everything that we get in this world comes
with some strings attached...lets just consider these
annoying things as the price we must pay for a single
unified list....

Post by Satya

Post by Ravindra Jaju

Post by Satya
FWIW, I'm voting *against* separate lists. I'm for one

list. (Or two,

Post by Ravindra Jaju

Post by Satya
one regular one jobs/commercial. That's what UUASC

does.)

Post by Ravindra Jaju
What's UUASC and how does it in any way affect our

behaviour?
unix users association of southern california. It
doesn't.

Post by Ravindra Jaju
If you have more convincing arguments, please put forth.

That's how I feel. I did say I was voting. I did not say
I was arguing
(as in "debate" not as in "fight").
--
Satya. <URL:http://satya.virtualave.net/>
Reality is for people who can't handle Star Trek.
--
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com

[kishor bhagwat]

Post by Ravindra Jaju

Post by Ravindra Jaju
Of course, to make things clear (as was implied in

another mail), nothing

Post by Ravindra Jaju
like a 'dogfight' here.

Certainly not. Some people get strange ideas.

shucks...where is your sense of humour guys?



__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com

[Manish Jethani]

Post by kishor bhagwat

Post by Ravindra Jaju

Post by Ravindra Jaju
Of course, to make things clear (as was implied in

another mail), nothing

Post by Ravindra Jaju
like a 'dogfight' here.

Certainly not. Some people get strange ideas.

shucks...where is your sense of humour guys?

Gone to the dogs!

When he said dogfight, he was serious about the 'dog' part of
it, not the 'fight' part of it. :-))

Take it personally now :-P

-Dog^H^H^HManish

[Rajesh Deo]

Post by Parag Shah

Post by Saswata Banerjee & Associates
Actually, it would be best if we can have one mailing list, but give options
which force people to either put

[snip]

Post by Parag Shah
Seems like a good idea to start with. Will let us stay away from the
overhead (may be debatable since some people may not find this an
overhead, and some people will...) of creating multiple lists. Instead
of maintaining multiple list subscriptions we can maintain filters. If

Yes that is a perfectly good idea.

Post by Parag Shah
create more lists. Offcourse we will have to hope that people properly
categorize their mails... and not put mails with commercial content in
the [technical] category. We can start with this approach and then scale
up to multiple lists if this approach presents drawbacks that can be
addressed with multiple lists.

I think we should stick with only a single list, but make sure that people
get banned if they repeatedly default on following guidelines. That will
lead to a bit of tidying up, and awareness that the *guidelines* are
ment for something.

Post by Parag Shah
In any case instead of debating
endlessly... lets decide on an immediate plan and implement it. I think
a> Let things be as they are
b> Have multiple lists
c> Have one list with a category in the subject line.

I go for option (c). Also that the categories should be limited, for
example,
1. [Commercial]
For job postings by _employers_. People should use their
own contacts to find jobs and not mailing lists like ours.
People can however search our mailing list to get a list
of possible employers and forward their resumes to them
independently.
2. [Newbie Question]
Anything under the Sun that deals with GNU/Linux that a
newbie may wish to ask. This should allow people to ask
where to look for documentation or which utility to use
for a task, things of that nature.
3. [OT]
Offtopic tidbits
4. [Announce: Software/LUG Meet/Workshop]
Announcements of Meetings, workshops organised by LUG and
FLOSS software written by LUG members.
4. Rest all can be regular technical/general discussions.

If we can comeup with a definitive list and post it on list, and hope that
everybody uses it. People can use their individual mail filters to filter
things they are interested in then, while still leaving options open for
newbies, semi-geeks and hackers to still post to the same list. Less
trouble for moderators, as well as list members. This may sound a bit
utopian but it is possible if repeat offenders are given a few /ban ;).

[Manish Jethani]

Post by Rajesh Deo
1. [Commercial]

[...]

Post by Rajesh Deo
2. [Newbie Question]

[...]

Post by Rajesh Deo
3. [OT]

[...]

Post by Rajesh Deo
4. [Announce: Software/LUG Meet/Workshop]

[...]

Post by Rajesh Deo
4. Rest all can be regular technical/general discussions.

And, eventually, categories 1-4 will be forgotten.

Discussions of this kind have happened before. Similar
suggestions have come up. They're lost somewhere in the
archives (go search it!). Nothing happened.

The list has never imposed any kind of protocol on its
subscribers. I don't think it will, ever.

It's time to end this discussion. Learn from the past. Read,
again, the original message from Philip. Absorb. Move on.

-Manish

[Parag Shah]

I do agree that this discussion is getting somewhat out of hand, and it
is time to move on. However if we do move on without addressing the
issue then such discussions will surface every few weeks/months. On the
other hand if we do address the issue right now then chances are that
such discussions will surface with a lesser probability in the future.
It is possible that whatever plan we adopt will have drawbacks and those
will spur more discussions, but still that is not a good reason to
ignore the issue and not act at all. A good thing to do would be to
adopt a simple and workable plan... as Kishore put it "the plan of least
resistence". Perhaps we should also take this discussion of the mailing
list and address it in the next LUG meeting as Kapil suggested.
And lets get back to Linuxing.

The list has never imposed any kind of protocol on its subscribers. I
don't think it will, ever.
It's time to end this discussion. Learn from the past. Read, again,
the original message from Philip. Absorb. Move on.
-Manish

regards
Parag

[kishor bhagwat]

Post by Saswata Banerjee & Associates

Post by Saswata Banerjee & Associates
Actually, it would be best if we can have one mailing

list, but give options

Post by Saswata Banerjee & Associates
which force people to either put

sounds like this is the path of least resistance..i'm game
for this.....this experiment..

regds,
Kishor


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com

[Rajesh Deo]

[snip]

Post by Manish Jethani

Post by Rajesh Deo
4. [Announce: Software/LUG Meet/Workshop]

[...]

Post by Rajesh Deo
4. Rest all can be regular technical/general discussions.

And, eventually, categories 1-4 will be forgotten.
Discussions of this kind have happened before. Similar
suggestions have come up. They're lost somewhere in the
archives (go search it!). Nothing happened.
The list has never imposed any kind of protocol on its
subscribers. I don't think it will, ever.
It's time to end this discussion. Learn from the past. Read,
again, the original message from Philip. Absorb. Move on.
-Manish

I think, I have been on list on and off, for a while now, and I did not
see so much irrelevance in mails till now. The mail from Philip was
obviously indicative of that. I was only responding to Parag's
suggestions. It is completely clear to me that such a protocol won't be
followed, if I know anything about human nature. But I think by simply
mentioning it we give some indications to people on list, as to what is
perceived "appropriate" in electronic communications. And as you said it
is time to move on.

ciao
-Rajesh

[Dot Dot]

Hi Geeks,

This is my first mail to the ILUG, but I do follow mails exchanged.

With due respect to all of the luggers who expressed their views on this thread, I would like to point out something from a newbies point of view.

1. Please understand that we are new to Linux. We want help from LInux gurus like you to help us. And there are many of us, feeling reluctant to ask questions, because we dont know if they will sound silly.

2. Please dont intimidate us with strict rules for sending a mail to LUG mailing list. Let us feel free to ask questions, even if it looks like trivial to geeks. We understand that your time is valuable. But we would like to request you to take some time out to sort out our issues. I understand it when you get irritated seeing a mail seeking job. But let us be happy that there are people out there looking for a job in Linux. We are growing. Let us not think that they are not upto our standards. They didnt get a chance to understand Linux earlier.

3. We will be sad if you start a new mailing list for linux gurus. We will feel left alone. I thought we want to make people aware of Linux and encourage them to use it. Not to create groups of geeks and newbies. Please dont discriminate. Try to help us solve our trivial issues.

4. I personally will agree to categories. Let us give it a try. There is no need to enforce it strictly.

The views expressed here doesn't implicate that any of the esteemed lugger thought low about the newbies.

--
Newbie

__________________________________________________________
Get Your Electric Email at http://webmail.electricmela.com

[Ravindra Jaju]

Hi all.

Post by Dot Dot
2. Please dont intimidate us with strict rules for sending a mail to LUG mailing list.
Let us feel free to ask questions, even if it looks like trivial to geeks. We
understand that your time is valuable. But we would like to request you to take some
time out to sort out our issues. I understand it when you get irritated seeing a mail
seeking job. But let us be happy that there are people out there looking for a job in
Linux. We are growing. Let us not think that they are not upto our standards. They
didnt get a chance to understand Linux earlier.

Exactly. No one should be intimidated by strict rules. So, a simple rule could
be to mail to specific mailing lists, where no one would really bother about certain
criteria not being fulfilled ( top-posts, invalid subject ) but go ahead and reply,
*and*, maybe, remind about etiquettes etc.
So, if on a particular day, some of us are busy and don't want to read "general" mails,
they can simply ignore mails on a particular mailing list, but read and reply to
the 'more geeky' stuff.

Post by Dot Dot
3. We will be sad if you start a new mailing list for linux gurus. We will feel left
alone. I thought we want to make people aware of Linux and encourage them to use it.
Not to create groups of geeks and newbies. Please dont discriminate. Try to help us
solve our trivial issues.

No one stops the 'newbies' from joining the 'geeky' list. But the 'geeks' have a choice,
for one, to read only such mails (and of course, no one said that the 'geeks' should
not be members of the 'general' mailing list).
The 'newbies' can subscribe to the 'geekies' in a 'read-only' mode (self-imposed),
and then start mailing once they are sure about the hows/whys/whats. The 'geekies'
list can have stricter impositions for compliance (whatever).

My 2 paise.

[Devdas Bhagat]

On 30/03/03 01:08 -0500, Dot Dot wrote:
<snip>

Post by Dot Dot
1. Please understand that we are new to Linux. We want help from LInux
gurus like you to help us. And there are many of us, feeling reluctant
to ask questions, because we dont know if they will sound silly.

We were all new once.
The how to ask questions guide is at
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Post by Dot Dot
2. Please dont intimidate us with strict rules for sending a mail to LUG
mailing list. Let us feel free to ask questions, even if it looks like

Not all of us use GUI mail clients. Turning word wrap on is just a
matter of netiquette. This mail is being composed in a 80 x 25 console.
Asking offtopic questions is in bad form. Using HTML is bad form.
Not searching google first is very bad form.

Post by Dot Dot
trivial to geeks. We understand that your time is valuable. But we would
like to request you to take some time out to sort out our issues. I

We would just like to see people doing some research first, rather than
turning to the LUG as an instant consultancy.

Post by Dot Dot
understand it when you get irritated seeing a mail seeking job. But let

The mailing list has a mail sent when you join detailing list policies
and guidelines.

Post by Dot Dot
us be happy that there are people out there looking for a job in Linux.

Use of the wrong forum tends to decrease Signal to Noise Ratio, making
the list less valuable for all of us.

Post by Dot Dot
We are growing. Let us not think that they are not upto our standards.
They didnt get a chance to understand Linux earlier.
3. We will be sad if you start a new mailing list for linux gurus. We
will feel left alone. I thought we want to make people aware of Linux
and encourage them to use it. Not to create groups of geeks and
newbies. Please dont discriminate. Try to help us solve our trivial
issues.

Maybe trying to solve your own problems first is better.
Please try to unerstand Linux culture:
We did not start with handholding. Maybe a unix book or two, and the
manuals (online). The Linux solution has usually been do it yourself.
For the newbie, his/her question may be totally new, but for someone who
has to answer the same questions repeatedly, it gets boring.
There is a very good reason why the turnover in helpdesk jobs is so
high.
Learning to use the tools that you have is much better than being told
what to do. The newbie here has much better resources at hand than what
we did. It just that the newbies have to learn that the list is not for
spoonfeeding them. We can but show them the path. Walking the path is
something they have to do for themselves. (with apologies to Morpheus).

<snip>

Post by Dot Dot
The views expressed here doesn't implicate that any of the esteemed
lugger thought low about the newbies.

Ummm, that flame was on the SNR of the list, not on newbies in general.
Being rude tends to get flames in response.

Devdas Bhagat

[Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe]

Post by Devdas Bhagat

Post by Dot Dot
trivial to geeks. We understand that your time is valuable. But we would
like to request you to take some time out to sort out our issues. I

We would just like to see people doing some research first, rather than
turning to the LUG as an instant consultancy.

Thats what the list is for ... sorting out each other's word. But mark
Devdas's words - do your research first. Documents such as HOWTO's,
manpages, guides etc were created exactly to help newbies to cope with
common things that everyone is tired of answering. Show some effort on
your side to learn; everyone is here to help each other.

Sameer.

[Bhargav Bhatt]

On Sun, Mar 30, 2003 at 01:08:16AM -0500, Dot Dot wrote:

[snip]

Post by Dot Dot
1. Please understand that we are new to Linux. We want help from LInux gurus like you to help us. And there are many of us, feeling reluctant to ask questions, because we dont know if they will sound silly.

Most of the people on this list would be glad to help if they can. But
remember it can't be all one sided. If there is someone willing to help you,
then you must be willing to put in some effort yourself. This effort
includes digging the man pages, using google, etc.

Post by Dot Dot
2. Please dont intimidate us with strict rules for sending a mail to LUG mailing list. Let us feel free to ask questions, even if it looks like trivial to geeks. We understand that your time is valuable. But we would like to request you to take some time out to sort out our issues. I understand it when you get irritated seeing a mail seeking job. But let us be happy that there are people out there looking for a job in Linux. We are growing. Let us not think that they are not upto our standards. They didnt get a chance to understand Linux earlier.

Regarding jobs: While it is heartening to see people seeking jobs in Linux,
I don't think this is an appropriate place for such postings. There are
literally millions of places on the internet where this information can be
found. Otherwise, this list will just become like another variant of
jobs.com.

Post by Dot Dot
3. We will be sad if you start a new mailing list for linux gurus. We will feel left alone. I thought we want to make people aware of Linux and encourage them to use it. Not to create groups of geeks and newbies. Please dont discriminate. Try to help us solve our trivial issues.

Even in the categories, nobody will discriminate against people. It might
very well be the case that a guru sometimes has a question which he feels
that a newcomer to linux might know something about (like some feature of
the latest Redhat distro). This is where the categories, I suspect, will
come into play. It's for sorting questions, not people.

Post by Dot Dot
4. I personally will agree to categories. Let us give it a try. There is no need to enforce it strictly.
The views expressed here doesn't implicate that any of the esteemed lugger thought low about the newbies.
--
Newbie

Also, watch your line legth. While some mail clients handle this well,
other's are not quite up to the mark.

--
Bhargav Bhatt,
Columbia University.

Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way
around.

[Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe]

Post by Bhargav Bhatt

Post by Dot Dot
2. Please dont intimidate us with strict rules for sending a mail
to LUG mailing list. Let us feel free to ask questions, even if it
looks like trivial to geeks. We understand that your time is
valuable. But we would like to request you to take some time out
to sort out our issues. I understand it when you get irritated
seeing a mail seeking job. But let us be happy that there are
people out there looking for a job in Linux. We are growing. Let
us not think that they are not upto our standards. They didnt get
a chance to understand Linux earlier.

Regarding jobs: While it is heartening to see people seeking jobs in
Linux, I don't think this is an appropriate place for such postings.
There are literally millions of places on the internet where this
information can be found. Otherwise, this list will just become like
another variant of jobs.com.

IMHO, its okay _advertise_ for GNU/Linux related jobs on a list ... it
is a GNU/Linux _user's_ group after all! But its a different matter
when people send replies to the list instead of the original poster!

Sameer.

[Ninad Purohit]

can any one classify please who's a newbie or who's a
geek for that matter? I always thought these terms
were relative. How exactly do u qualify to be a geek?
r there any exams to be given or any knockout bouts to
select the geeks?
do geeks know all and newbies know nothing?
also is this mailing list owned by somebody?
some people talk about banning other people, r those
the owners?
what gives some people the right to look down upon
others?.so what is this, open source closed community?
people mail their doubts and of the ten mails they
might receive only 2 try to solve them. the remaining
tell them to top or bottom post/laugh at their
ignorance .

and if at all this list gets split i suggest a fifth
category reserved for egotisms and plummage puffing

=====
ninad purohit
ninadonline(at)yahoo(dot)co(dot)in
have a nice day :-)

________________________________________________________________________
Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV.
visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com

[Bhargav Bhatt]

Post by Ninad Purohit
can any one classify please who's a newbie or who's a
geek for that matter? I always thought these terms
were relative. How exactly do u qualify to be a geek?
r there any exams to be given or any knockout bouts to
select the geeks?

I am with you here. I don't think it's possible to classify people as
newbies/geeks. In my opinion, question posers are best judges of their
questions and it should be upto them to decide which category does their
question fit in.

Post by Ninad Purohit
do geeks know all and newbies know nothing?
also is this mailing list owned by somebody?
some people talk about banning other people, r those
the owners?
what gives some people the right to look down upon
others?

Everyone has a right to form their opinions about others and can voice these
thoughts if they deem necessary. Besides, bandwidth isn't cheap. In my own
case, I don't _CARE_ for the URL of Mr. X's resume or who his potential
employer is. If I wanted to know more about people, I would not look
for them on mailing list. I joined this list so that I can have my questions
answered and get to know of other interesting questions/debates about the
technical/ethical issues surrounding GNU/Linux. And if I see that my
bandwidth is getting wasted in downloading emails that are utterly useless
to me and the cause of the list, I think I have the full right to be angry
about it.

Post by Ninad Purohit
.so what is this, open source closed community?
people mail their doubts and of the ten mails they
might receive only 2 try to solve them. the remaining
tell them to top or bottom post/laugh at their
ignorance .

This is a community of users that is very vocal about its beliefs. If you
want to equate vocality with narror-mindedness then so be it.

Post by Ninad Purohit
=====
ninad purohit
ninadonline(at)yahoo(dot)co(dot)in
have a nice day :-)

[v***@softhome.net]

Post by Ninad Purohit
can any one classify please who's a newbie or who's a
geek for that matter? I always thought these terms
were relative. How exactly do u qualify to be a geek?

We, the g/luggers are planning to have a cross-country code race
for would-be geeks. The race map will be posted to this
list soon. Recommended exercises to prepare for "THE RACE"
is looking around for answers in man/info/HOWTOS pages. If that
doesn't help - googlize the web and using command --help.
You should go through these exercises ten times every month.
Deliberation are on within the GLUG to include these as
eligibility criteria.

Other exercises which might help your preparation are learning
to fix your line length, not using top posting, asking questions
the smart way (after giving enough info about your efforts) and
searching the archives of the list (to see if your answers are
have already been answered).

Also chanting "I SHALL NOT VIOLATE THE MAILING LIST GUIDELINES"
everyday may strengthen your resolve to win the race.

Post by Ninad Purohit
r there any exams to be given or any knockout bouts to
select the geeks?

Good idea !!! We shall discuss about it in the next GLUG
meeting. I hate some people on this list. I am looking forward
to give them some black eyes and broken bones ;-)

Post by Ninad Purohit
do geeks know all and newbies know nothing?

Are you talking about the ML guidelines here? I might agree
then on that classification :).

Post by Ninad Purohit
also is this mailing list owned by somebody?

Yeah. It is owned by all of us - the contributers and
the subscribers. We should use it responsibly.

Post by Ninad Purohit
some people talk about banning other people, r those
the owners?

Repeated offenders should be banned. After all of us
are HUMANS and not Bots. We don't have infinite patience.

Post by Ninad Purohit
what gives some people the right to look down upon
others?.so what is this, open source closed community?

You have the wrong impression, my friend. It was just
irate people venting their frustration after repeated
misuse of this mailing list. This is the free software
open community :). Open source people are also welcome
and so are others.

Post by Ninad Purohit
and if at all this list gets split i suggest a fifth
category reserved for egotisms and plummage puffing

While splitting the list will do little good, education
of newbies will definitely help.

I feel two suggestions posted during this discussion
can be implemented by using a path of _least_resistance_

Parag Shah's suggestion to have classifying headers in the
subject line (some people don't even have subject line).
However what would be suitable headers can be discussed
in the LUG meet.

Nikhil Karkera's suggestion to have an online test of the
mailing list guidelines before members subscribe. (It seems
funny, but at this point it seems the only logical way to make
people read and "UNDERSTAND" the guidelines.)

:D ciao

Vinayak Hegde
APGDST Student
NCST-JUHU

[Nikhil Karkera]

Having seperate lists is not going to stop people from doing
stupid things like asking for a job or looking for a friend.
Somehow we need to make new joinees read list guidelines/FAQs
and
follow them.

I guess the problem here is making sure that people are aware of
the general guidelines for posting mails before they actually do.
Most people, if aware of the rules and their importance, will not
break them.

Suggestion: (might sound funny)

Give new subscribers an online multiple choice test on basic
posting guidelines. Should be able to clear the test, if one has
gone through the guidelines, which we get in the initial mail.
Subscribe only if passed the test.

This not only ensures that the person is certainly aware of the
guidelines document and has read it, but also communicates to
her/him that the list members are serious about it. Serious enough
to keep an entrance test :)

Warm Regards,
Nikhil.


_______________________________________________________________________
Odomos - the only mosquito protection outside 4 walls -
Click here to know more!
http://r.rediff.com/r?http://clients.rediff.com/odomos/Odomos.htm&&odomos&&wn

[nici bhatt]

Hello all,

Well from last few days kind of activity going on is of great concern to all
members of LUG. Let me tell you if we think that this list is only for
quality people than we are doing un-justice to fundamentally growing demand
and the people. this should be treated as popularity measure that people are
willing to act and react in this list.

How one can distinguish own self as a geek? newbie? Surprisingly I have
been in this industry from last 11 years and been to almost all Part of the
world but I have never seen people who claim that they are geek I have seen
people who are working as hardcore developer/architecture to the length who
design something which was never thought of but no one has a this kind of
problem than why we should have it. we are nothing less than newbie as far
as technology is concern and lets do not divide people on this basis
otherwise we will block our own growth.

As far as job posting is concern I think it is good idea to have them on our
site rather than posting to list, have define format for job posting and
than filter that posting and redirect to the job listing archive of the
site. Don’t try to stop this as this is will help us to build good community
it self which is helping and growing by its own. Just for personnel
discomfort lets not fight we all are here for good reason and be good to
absorb some junks for others who are in process to be good or else tomorrow
they will also do same thing what they faced during their time.

I hope every one will take this in positive manner and understand basic idea
behind this. And yes plz.. do not start again on my posting I am not trying
to pretend as geek or something like that I have just given you example of
my experience and what I have seen in this industry and I don’t claim that
you have not seen this but this is a humble request that everyone should be
considered equally and not on basis of what they know and what we know.

Regards,
Nici






_________________________________________________________________
War on Iraq. See latest update.
http://server1.msn.co.in/completecoverage/bushvssaddam/ News, views and more

[Ravindra Jaju]

Post by nici bhatt
How one can distinguish own self as a geek? newbie? Surprisingly I have
been in this industry from last 11 years and been to almost all Part of the
world but I have never seen people who claim that they are geek I have seen
people who are working as hardcore developer/architecture to the length who
design something which was never thought of but no one has a this kind of
problem than why we should have it. we are nothing less than newbie as far
as technology is concern and lets do not divide people on this basis
otherwise we will block our own growth.

<snip>

There's nothing like a geek/newbie. Agreed.
I don't think anyone even wanted to mean that, proclaiming themselves as
geeks especially.

The terms were just being loosely used, without any implied importance (or
the lack of it) for the terms used. In this case, some people are 'geeky'
in their 'follow-the-norm' behaviour, not the techie stuff or anything.

But yes, many of us do want 'noise' (the definition of which is subjective
again) to be seperated from 'signal'. I don't understand why there is resistance
to forking, when many of us here survive on dial-up connections and do not
want to go through all mails at all times. Not just that, when a lot of mails
are not of interest to you, you tend to miss out on important/good mails
(subjective, again) many a times, and finally, it makes your involvement with
the list very much shallow. Personally, I too have a lot of queries, but
I'm simply reluctant to post them because I fear having to sift through mails
for answers when people reply to original mails (or related, thread mails)
with different content, and then discussions going off-track. For all this
while, I've become a read-only subscriber (until this thread started). I
don't read all mails (maybe, 20% only, based on the subject line), but I don't
want to unsubscribe too, as it makes me feel cut-off!

The forking could be as simple as
1] Unmoderated
2] Moderated

Moderated list follows all the guidelines strictly (moderation need not mean
full time involvement of a moderator, but, maybe, strict implementations of
rules like banning a user for, say, 15 days, if norms are repeatedly flouted).
Unmoderated list is very liberal, and some people can volunteer ( in turns )
to remind those who flout the rules with URLs to guidelines, FAQs et al.

Everyone here wants more people to come into the 'Free Software' movement,
no doubt. But then, that doesn't mean that when people voice out their
opinions, they are being rude or they are looking down upon someone.
It's just that some people are looking for some solution to be able to
prioritise properly.

Anyways, we can opine endlessly without concluding. So, if we can't decide
by some fixed time, let us drop this discussion, and allow things to
move on as before. I can stay in read-only mode ;-)

[Philip S Tellis]

Post by Parag Shah
c> Have one list with a category in the subject line.

We already have this. How many people adhere to it?

[Tahir Hashmi]

IMHO we've had enough debate on this issue and the posts now are
simply rehashing what's been said earlier. I request the list admins
to kindly consider the suggestions brought forward so far and arrive
at some decision.

[Rahul Chaudhary]

Hello All,
There are many reasons people post job requirements on this mailing
list.
1. Most of the people posting job opportunities are subscribers to this
mailing list and feel 'connected' to this group. They also feel like
giving preference (by passing on the information first) to fellow
linuxers.
2. Most of the people listed in this group are volunteers, they have
genuine interest in technology and have a craving for learning and
sharing. Most organisations (at least the wise ones) recognise these
skills as far more important than knowing current technology or being a
BE from an premier institute.
Institute ka chappa can only help you get better job and salary, but you
sustain it only if you are good in it.

I feel that people who post job opportunities recognise, patronise and
respect our efforts to learn, adapt, share and grow with everyone.

Three cheers for group
Rahul Chaudhary
Solution Architect - Banking Solutions
Wipro, Bombay

-----Original Message-----
From: linuxers-***@mm.ilug-bom.org.in
[mailto:linuxers-***@mm.ilug-bom.org.in] On Behalf Of Sameer D.
Sahasrabuddhe
Sent: 30 March 2003 16:49
To: ***@mm.ilug-bom.org.in
Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] Re: list going to the dogs

Post by Bhargav Bhatt

Post by Dot Dot
2. Please dont intimidate us with strict rules for sending a mail
to LUG mailing list. Let us feel free to ask questions, even if it
looks like trivial to geeks. We understand that your time is
valuable. But we would like to request you to take some time out
to sort out our issues. I understand it when you get irritated
seeing a mail seeking job. But let us be happy that there are
people out there looking for a job in Linux. We are growing. Let
us not think that they are not upto our standards. They didnt get
a chance to understand Linux earlier.

Regarding jobs: While it is heartening to see people seeking jobs in
Linux, I don't think this is an appropriate place for such postings.
There are literally millions of places on the internet where this
information can be found. Otherwise, this list will just become like
another variant of jobs.com.

IMHO, its okay _advertise_ for GNU/Linux related jobs on a list ... it
is a GNU/Linux _user's_ group after all! But its a different matter
when people send replies to the list instead of the original poster!

Sameer.

[Saswata Banerjee & Associates]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rahul Chaudhary" <***@SoftHome.net>
To: <***@mm.ilug-bom.org.in>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 10:56 AM
Subject: RE: [ILUG-BOM] Re: list going to the dogs

Post by Rahul Chaudhary
Hello All,
There are many reasons people post job requirements on this mailing
list.

We dont have any problem with job postings. The problem is with people not
bothering to put in "[Commercial]" on it so that others dont waste time
reading it. Keeping in line with the basic list etiquetes and protocols is
important.

Regards
Saswata