Discussion:
[OT] Interesting Conversation
(too old to reply)
Nikhil Joshi
2002-09-04 13:03:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi!
I had a conversation with my B.E. comp friend about Linux.
Basically he is doing a project in VC++

fr:So you are doing project in Linux right ?
me:yeah. C programming in Linux
fr:Oh,does Linux have VB,VC ?
me:No
fr:hmm... so will my VC programs run on Linux?
me:No
fr:Then what's the use of Linux?

I was stupified. (OK Windows programs can b emulated but still
they cannot 'run' right ?)

This is from a guy who had Operating Systems,System
Programming,Microprocessor in his syllabus

I guess the whole syllabus is 'DOS' oriented.
ppl still cannot digest the fact that there are many other compilers other
than the 'standard' Turbo C++ 3.0

Also I've observed that this is the general awareness/attitude of Comp.
ppl abt Linux.

I can only imagine what it must be like for Arts/Commerce/ ppl to
understand what is Linux

--
Nikhil
Shishir
2002-09-04 14:33:56 UTC
Permalink
Hey Nikhil,

I beg to differ from your views. I am from a commerce background and have
immense interest in the Open Source Movement. In fact, I have already
motivated lot of friends to consider Linux and they are already learning. I
do agree that the syllabus of most of the computer science / engineering
courses does not give a broad IT perspective. But then it also depends on
the individual how he grooms his knowledge.

I have been using Redhat since version 4.0 and recently switched over to
Mandrake 8.2. I have already fiddled around quite a bit with Mandrake,
Debian, Redhat, Suse, FreeBSD.

I think it is all about the attitude. So what do you think now?

Cheers,
Shishir

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nikhil Joshi" <***@subdimension.com>
To: "Linuxers" <***@mm.ilug-bom.org.in>
Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 8:01 AM
Subject: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] Interesting Conversation


Hi!
I had a conversation with my B.E. comp friend about Linux.
Basically he is doing a project in VC++

fr:So you are doing project in Linux right ?
me:yeah. C programming in Linux
fr:Oh,does Linux have VB,VC ?
me:No
fr:hmm... so will my VC programs run on Linux?
me:No
fr:Then what's the use of Linux?

I was stupified. (OK Windows programs can b emulated but still
they cannot 'run' right ?)

This is from a guy who had Operating Systems,System
Programming,Microprocessor in his syllabus

I guess the whole syllabus is 'DOS' oriented.
ppl still cannot digest the fact that there are many other compilers other
than the 'standard' Turbo C++ 3.0

Also I've observed that this is the general awareness/attitude of Comp.
ppl abt Linux.

I can only imagine what it must be like for Arts/Commerce/ ppl to
understand what is Linux

--
Nikhil
Manish Jethani
2002-09-04 17:02:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shishir
Hey Nikhil,
I beg to differ from your views. I am from a commerce
background and have immense interest in the Open Source
Movement. In fact, I have already motivated lot of friends to
[snip]
Post by Shishir
I think it is all about the attitude. So what do you think
now?
I couldn't agree more!

Manish
Harsh R Busa
2002-09-04 17:11:53 UTC
Permalink
hi nikhil .. what college are u from ? as far as CS syllabus is concerned
atleast bbay univ is making unix as std platform for do lab practs. right
from FE.

no ofense intended but just trying to get across some facts. i suggest u
discuss this with ur friend.

ask your friend to name all his favorite dev tools under his favorite os.
now ask him does it run on mainframes,Servers, desktops, pdas, watches,...
?

also a very good example is the bug patching
For your favortive OS
You pay $100s for OS , $100s for dev tools, $1000s for databases, $100s for
office tools, $1000s for servers. that too with restriction on num of users.
how well does it talk to other OSes. and must we say anything abt security.
? then you pay huge sums for every release of ms product. then if u get a
bug all u do for few mins is gaze at the beautiful screen .

then you buy an update that will cost u another $100's or so.

then you find out that the bug u r facing is resolved in forthcoming
release, but still not all
and the viscous cycle continues. so effectively solving a bug takes more
than 2-3 weeksin BEST CASE if patch is not there. at times your bug is not
very important for ppl to bother to solve it. so finally u have developed an
application with several compromises.

For Linux
You dont pay for the OS and with comes loads of free dev tools, suites,
servers, databases, progarmming languages, name it and it has it. which
takes atleast a month to unleash their basic features.

with that u get the source code so that you can tailor your OS to your
needs. if u find a bug all u do is correct the code and recompile the
driver/kernel or whatever.

if u can figure out post querries to lug grps. expect replies in few hrs.or
maybe some one has already patched it for u . so ideally you have a bug
resolved in few days WORST CASE.

all the more if u develop a killer app or patch a deadly bug you just might
find your code on the way to next release of linux. also which os gives u
this level of h/w s/w control and flexibility.how well does it talk to other
OSes

can his fav applications make all this possible ?

also acc to me linux is not for dumb users.

if u want to develop a game or a word pad it might be easy, friendly in
windoz but what abt real time killer apps? what is the stability of linx
servers and others ?

i guess philip, trevor and others can write more abt technical issues..

what else... abt arts/sci/ comm ppl i guess they have more exposure coz they
have more choices.

dont ever give a stupified look to such ppl ...
just tell them to try and experience the difference.
folks please react

take care
Harsh
Q u a s i
2002-09-04 20:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Easy pal ,cool down,
windoz (dumb) ppl don't understand this , they are addicted to it , they
think windoz is GOD and Billu is making money out of all this.
Well i am very hopeful that LINUX will make a dent to this notion and will
surely be a victor.
We all should encourage people to use LINUX and tell the benefits that u
mentioned.
Windows as an OS has evolved. M$ is good at getting inspired
(read stealing ideas) from a lot of sources. But they put it in one
package and give you. For someone who is not a geek/nerd/developer (or all
of them together), and willing to pay a few Ks then Windows is a good
choice. And - there is a *huge* number of good free software for windows
too, of late.

There are a *lot* of people out there who dont want to be awake at
2am trying to get something to work. They just want to click, get a
presentation done for tomorrow in 20 minutes and go to bed. I personally
do all my programming in Linux (where lives emacs :). But I still trip on
winamp+tripex3 and surf the net with IE. (X-windows suxx majorly.)

We are all here because we love Linux. It gives a
geek/nerd/developer/et.al the freedom of creativity and choice. It is
blinding fast. You get to play with it and make it do things not possible
on any M$ products (maybe). But I, at leaset, do not come here because I
hate windows.

I feel very queasy when people want to jump on the Linux bandwagon
saying it is the coolest. It is indeed cool, but what is most important is
that it has the potential to be ~170 deg K.


quasi
Tahir Hashmi
2002-09-04 21:50:54 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 04 Sep 2002 15:05:35 +0530
I still trip on winamp+tripex3 and surf the net with IE. (X-windows
suxx majorly.)
Hold it, hold it. Circa June 2000, my Gnome + Enlightenment desktop
was a showcase that caused many a dropped jaws. I can any day say
without hesitation that Gnome (haven't used KDE) is ages ahead of MS
stuff even in coolness factor. I'm sorry, you probably never tried to
go beyond the default settings of your window manager. I've written
somethings at http://staff.ncst.ernet.in/tahir/Linux/ii.shtml#iii4 in
case you (or someone else) missed something about Linux GUI. AFA
coolness is concerned, try
Loading Image... (Caution 1.2 MB!!)

Uh, one more thing, visit http://www.w3.org/Style/ in IE6 and Mozilla
(> 0.9), spend a few seconds there and then tell us what you saw.

I'm so sorry this post is blatant propaganda but I couldn't resist.
--
Tahir Hashmi (VSE, NCST)
http://staff.ncst.ernet.in/tahir
tahir AT ncst DOT ernet DOT in

We, the rest of humanity, wish GNU luck and Godspeed
Q u a s i
2002-09-04 23:31:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tahir Hashmi
On Wed, 04 Sep 2002 15:05:35 +0530
I still trip on winamp+tripex3 and surf the net with IE. (X-windows
suxx majorly.)
Hold it, hold it. Circa June 2000, my Gnome + Enlightenment desktop was a
showcase that caused many a dropped jaws. I can any day say without
hesitation that Gnome (haven't used KDE) is ages ahead of MS
We dont agree. I have had X all the time past 6 years. But I have always
found it be a substandard, and a rather ad-hoc GUI. The need to keep it
generic and portable has made the X architecture excessively slow. They
are bring in (supposedly) cool things like DRI etc. we shall see... I
have used Gnome (Xamian & otherwise) and it has definitely come a long way
but it lacks smoothness and that crisp feel. First time I installed
enlightenment and the bluesteel theme even my jaw dropped to the
floor. But enlightenment has eye candy but is bulky and slack & I dont
like nor need all those frills while working. Sawfish is fast but still
not smooth enough. IceWM & FVWM2 were the best I have used. Windows 98SE
is *way* faster and smoother and crispier (talking about the GUI only)
especially when you take away the web integration. In the past 2 years I
am using it I have got the arbit blue screen only 4 or 5 times. And I have
hung my xserver as many times too. Whatever you use, you have to tweak it
for better performance, aint it so dear Sir? We can all equally say
{quote}"I'm sorry, you probably never tried to go beyond the default
settings of your window manager."{/quote}
Post by Tahir Hashmi
stuff even in coolness factor. I'm sorry, you probably never tried to go
beyond the default settings of your window manager.
pluze ! presumptuous are we?
Post by Tahir Hashmi
I've written somethings at
http://staff.ncst.ernet.in/tahir/Linux/ii.shtml#iii4
Excellent site design. I see that we have emacs in common at least!!!
Post by Tahir Hashmi
in case you (or someone else) missed something about Linux GUI. AFA
coolness is concerned
I will desist. :D
Post by Tahir Hashmi
Uh, one more thing, visit http://www.w3.org/Style/ in IE6 and Mozilla (>
0.9), spend a few seconds there and then tell us what you saw.
I dont need some site telling me which is better - I *use* IE6 and Mozilla
1.0 - Mozilla is good. Especially Galeon is very fast under Gnome (as it
is Gtk based ?) and has all the advantages of the gecko engine of
Mozilla. But I find IE6 is much faster/smoother for browsing. Before IE5
came out I used Netscape. IE4 or befor were OK, but IE5 onwards they are
good. On my machine IE6 is as fast as Opera. IMHO the best browser for
Linux is Links. :D

I love GNU/Linux (not X)
Post by Tahir Hashmi
Tahir Hashmi (VSE, NCST)
quasi (A generally trivial nobody.)
Q u a s i
2002-09-05 06:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Q u a s i
I dont need some site telling me which is better - I *use* IE6 and Mozilla
1.0 - Mozilla is good. Especially Galeon is very fast under Gnome (as it
I think what he meant was that IE cannot display all the features of style
sheets because it doesn't support them. IE is not a standards compliant
browser, although IE6 is probably the closest that they've come.
I had got that. But my *whole* argument was from the user point
of view. Not the technical. Mozilla may be superior to IE in design,
architecture etc. - but IE is faster/cleaner to use. Have Netscape/Mozilla
*always* been 100% compliant?
My webpage, which I handcoded in HTML looked bad in Netscape 4.?,
It looked better in Mozilla, but much better in IE5+. I have used png,
jpeg, CSS2.0 & plain HTML only.
On my X, Mozilla takes 10-15 seconds to start. Galeon takes
4-7. On my windows Netscape 6 took ~20 sec to load. Mozilla 6-10. IE
takes ~1 sec. It is not that I need IE, when in Linux I prefer Links.

But of course it is pointless.

quasi
p.s.
I think with this mail I will retire from this thread. Throwing about
our-own chests in front of each other is not the Linux way, at least not
for me. I have peace, in that I have converted a sufficiently large number
of people to the GNU/Linux way.
Q u a s i
2002-09-05 00:17:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip S Tellis
Post by Q u a s i
click, get a presentation done for tomorrow in 20 minutes and go to
powerpoint takes significantly more than 20 minutes to build a
presentation. more than a few hours actually. even then the presentation
isn't visible on an OHP because the person who built the presentation
doesn't understand the difference between a CRT and a projector.
If that comes to that, it is best to use transparencies and OHP marker
pens. That is why most of the dear lecturers at NCST do that.
Post by Philip S Tellis
well, I use linux because it works better than anything else I've used,
and it looks better than anything else I've used. Yes, I use X a lot when
I'm at work, and it's painful to have to use a windows machine after
sitting at my system. The widgets look ugly, the colours are
terrible, the sharp edges I don't like, and the nasty double-clicking is
too much for me. I use Gnome as my DM and Mozilla as my browser.
{grin} we surely have different tastes. But I guess the colours bit is a
bit too much dont you think? You can have whatever colours you like,
windows or x. In XP you get all sorts of curves too, translucence, shadow,
single clicks - all the works. Even getting single clicking to win98 SE is
a trivial 5 sec job. Come come Sir, let us be unbiased.

I am not propagating M$ products.
I am not saying windows is better overall.
All I am saying is dont ignore the good points of M$. As I mentioned
earlier, M$ has had no qualms incorporating features swiped from all over
the place.
What makes windows bearable, too, are some super cool *free* software
available for it.
Anyway we can sit arguing like this forever. In the end, we get used to
and love what we use.
Post by Philip S Tellis
I can watch movies full screen, and if only I could get a pair of speakers
in here, I could hear them too (my sound system is configured correctly).
We can watch full screen movies in Windows too. :D And yes I require a
pair of speaker to get sound out of windows too. BTW on my P200MMX
watching fullscreen movies on Linux was *very* jerky. Ditto windows media
player. But Cyberlink player played the same movies super smooth.
Post by Philip S Tellis
Post by Q u a s i
that it has the potential to be ~170 deg K.
hmmm... cool enough to get frostbite. ofcourse, if that's too cool for
some people, they could just switch themes, and linux would be hot!
as you know, ice can give you "burns" ... :D So, that 170'K I mentioned is
both super cool as well as burning hot - take your pick.

Let me quote William Blake "If the doors of perception were cleansed, all
things would appear infinite"


quasi
Q u a s i
2002-09-05 06:06:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip S Tellis
Post by Q u a s i
If that comes to that, it is best to use transparencies and OHP marker
pens. That is why most of the dear lecturers at NCST do that.
Hmm, I use HTML generated by a CGI script reading from a text file. It
takes me 20 minutes to make my text file.
I use HTML for slides too. I dont have M$ Office. But a *lot* of others
do. And calling them idiots is rather strange.

q
p.s.
before we spiral out, please try to recollect my first mail, if you read
it. I _am_not_ propagating Windows here for you all to jump on me. I did
not even say anything against GNU/Linux. I only said X sucked. It really
does. Why be zealotish?
Sameer Shinde
2002-09-06 09:16:18 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, September 04, 2002 3:05 PM
Post by Q u a s i
Windows as an OS has evolved. M$ is good at getting inspired
(read stealing ideas) from a lot of sources. But they put it in one
package and give you. For someone who is not a geek/nerd/developer (or all
of them together), and willing to pay a few Ks then Windows is a good
choice. And - there is a *huge* number of good free software for windows
too, of late.
There are a *lot* of people out there who dont want to be awake at
2am trying to get something to work. They just want to click, get a
presentation done for tomorrow in 20 minutes and go to bed. I personally
do all my programming in Linux (where lives emacs :). But I still trip on
winamp+tripex3 and surf the net with IE. (X-windows suxx majorly.)
We are all here because we love Linux.
But I, at leaset, do not come here because I
hate windows.
even I, I come to Linux b'coz I like to experiment & play with softwares.
It may be different softwares or different OS. I test them, use them if I
found
comfertable I keep it & start hunthing for another s/w.

After finding myself very much comfertable with windows, I moved to Linux
now I'm learning RH once I find myself comfertable with it I'll swithch to
another distribution or may be towards mac or FreeBSD
It doesn't meen that I hate windows. If it has some goodies, it has it.
Accept it. There is no harm in that. Nobody is going to Kill you for that.
After being on the list for quite a long time I found that, some ppl on the
list are not ready to accept it.

Some ppl say that Linux is free & so not is windows. But can they tell me
what wod they have done if linux & all of its goodies were also not free?
They say windows is buggy, even I say. But then everything have some
bugs ( even human beings ) Nothing is perfect. We are developer atleast
we should understand this.

I/we do some sort of programming & need to test it on different OS
But for a general user who is only interested in playing games, surfing
web & doing some work in word excel. Why should he swithch to
any other OS if he is getting MS for free ( pirated )? There is no reason
for that.

Note : This doesn't mean that I'm in favour of Win & opposing Linux
I just want to clear a thing that If something is good, let it be good,
do not blame it. Rather try to make your system to be good.

Thanks & Regards,
SAMEER :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Messenger IDs :
MSN : s2sameer Yahoo! : s9sameer
RediffBol : s2sameer Indiatimes : s2sameer
Visit My web-site @ :
www.geocities.com/s9sameer/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Himanshu Shukla
2002-09-05 15:25:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harsh R Busa
For your favortive OS
You pay $100s for OS , $100s for dev tools, $1000s for databases, $100s for
office tools, $1000s for servers. that too with restriction on num of users.
how well does it talk to other OSes. and must we say anything abt security.
? then you pay huge sums for every release of ms product. then if u get a
bug all u do for few mins is gaze at the beautiful screen .
then you buy an update that will cost u another $100's or so.
Well..what u say is very true...but do you think this actually counts as
a factor, if you think in terms of the piracy rate. How many of those
who buy a assembled PC, actually shell out extra money for the OS, the
dev tools, databases, etc. How many of them have actually called up
Microsoft for support, or upgraded software at a cost?

Ideally, it should work out like this..When selling a PC, the vendors
should actually give them the choices they have in terms of operating
systems, and then quote their prices (or the absence of it, in case of
linux). When this does happen, I guess alternative operating systems,
and I am not only talking of linux here, will be the norm.
--
---
---------------------------------------
Regards, | www.thefreespeech.org |
---------------------------------------
Himanshu | Initiate - Collaborate - Contribute |
---------------------------------------
Tahir Hashmi
2002-09-04 15:35:54 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:01:30 +0530 (IST)
Post by Nikhil Joshi
fr:So you are doing project in Linux right ?
me:yeah. C programming in Linux
fr:Oh,does Linux have VB,VC ?
me:No
fr:hmm... so will my VC programs run on Linux?
me:No
fr:Then what's the use of Linux?
Enough to prove that a significant portion of CompSci. students exist
just so that they earn money, however debased their fundamentals may
be. This is also a strong case for the point that not only should
colleges offering CompSci programs have heterogenous environments but
also encourage students to use each of those platforms and make
choices based on requirements and not on their preferences.
--
Tahir Hashmi (VSE, NCST)
http://staff.ncst.ernet.in/tahir
tahir AT ncst DOT ernet DOT in

We, the rest of humanity, wish GNU luck and Godspeed
Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe
2002-09-04 15:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikhil Joshi
Also I've observed that this is the general awareness/attitude of Comp.
ppl abt Linux.
I can only imagine what it must be like for Arts/Commerce/ ppl to
understand what is Linux
Don't try to imagine ... understanding has nothing to do with the stream
of your education. This case just goes to show how many people get into
CS just for the heck of it. I am sure there will be lots of non-CS or
even non-Engg people who are very well informed about all these
technicalities, because they retain the power to think inspite of
education.

Sameer.
--
MTech Student,
Reconfigurable Computing Lab,
KReSIT, IIT-Bombay.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Grief can take care of itself; but to get the full value of a joy you
must
have somebody to divide it with.
-- Mark Twain
Philip S Tellis
2002-09-04 15:55:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikhil Joshi
I had a conversation with my B.E. comp friend about Linux.
Basically he is doing a project in VC++
tell your friend that VC++ is not a language. C++ is a language, you
can do C++ in linux. Also, tell your friend that if he still programs
in VB, there's something wrong with him.

If he's using MFC in C++, then his programs won't work because the M in
MFC doesn't cooperate. Tell him it also won't work on any system that
doesn't have M's hand in it - which means his code will work only on
Windows - ie, he's locking himself in to one vendor.
Post by Nikhil Joshi
I can only imagine what it must be like for Arts/Commerce/ ppl to
understand what is Linux
much easier, since they haven't been exposed to bad habits yet.
--
"Conversion, fastidious Goddess, loves blood better than brick, and feasts
most subtly on the human will."
-- Virginia Woolf, "Mrs. Dalloway"
Mitul Limbani
2002-09-04 16:02:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Nikhil,
Your possible reply would be ....

:O yaa your program would only compile n run on Windoze....
while my program just needs a lil tweak n can work on whole lot of
Architecture...gcc ....is the compiler which makes wonders...
intel, sparc, mac, name it n it will run on it .....

so your program is inferior compared to mine ;) ...

any ways ....
i hope u know wat i mean to say ...
do something n show them ... so they themselves will realise the power
of linux....



Best Regards,
-Mitul Limbani
Support Editor
(***@wrox.com)
(http://www.wrox.com)
(http://p2p.wrox.com)
Post by Nikhil Joshi
Hi!
I had a conversation with my B.E. comp friend about Linux.
Basically he is doing a project in VC++
fr:So you are doing project in Linux right ?
me:yeah. C programming in Linux
fr:Oh,does Linux have VB,VC ?
me:No
fr:hmm... so will my VC programs run on Linux?
me:No
fr:Then what's the use of Linux?
I was stupified. (OK Windows programs can b emulated but still
they cannot 'run' right ?)
This is from a guy who had Operating Systems,System
Programming,Microprocessor in his syllabus
I guess the whole syllabus is 'DOS' oriented.
ppl still cannot digest the fact that there are many other compilers other
than the 'standard' Turbo C++ 3.0
Also I've observed that this is the general awareness/attitude of Comp.
ppl abt Linux.
I can only imagine what it must be like for Arts/Commerce/ ppl to
understand what is Linux
--
Nikhil
_______________________________________________
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Peer Information India Pvt Ltd, Mumbai, India
Satya
2002-09-04 16:33:55 UTC
Permalink
(Playing devil's advocate here.)
Post by Mitul Limbani
:O yaa your program would only compile n run on Windoze....
while my program just needs a lil tweak n can work on whole lot of
Architecture...gcc ....is the compiler which makes wonders...
intel, sparc, mac, name it n it will run on it .....
"Never heard of it. Why should I care? x% (x>90) computers in the
world run Windows. Servers? Haven't you heard of Windows NT?"
Post by Mitul Limbani
so your program is inferior compared to mine ;) ...
"But it works on more computers."
Trevor Warren
2002-09-04 17:50:54 UTC
Permalink
Hello luggers...;)

Am settin up a grp of mentors to lead the students
who r EAGER to start with the projects.

All the luggers interested ....pls mail me off the
list with the appropirate info.

--> Area of expertise.
--> Hooked onto the web for how many hours a day.
--> Will be able to guide the PRC groups for how
long....???
--> r u an academic/researcher/Working professional
--> Nythin else i should know.
--> Relevant experience in ur area of specialisation.

PN: The mail should b marked with the

SUBJECT as "PRC MENTORS".


Trevor Warren



=====
( >- GNU/LINUX, It's all about CHOICE -< )
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|_|_ \ Research Asst, MediaLab / _|_|
\___________________________________/

__________________________________________________
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Tapeshwar Nath
2002-09-04 18:40:53 UTC
Permalink
Easy pal ,cool down ,

windoz (dumb) ppl don't understand this , they are
addicted to it , they think windoz is GOD and Billu is
making money out of all this.

Well i am very hopeful that LINUX will make a dent to
this notion and will surely be a victor.

We all should encourage people to use LINUX and tell
the benefits that u mentioned.

Ciao
Tapesh
Post by Harsh R Busa
hi nikhil .. what college are u from ? as far as CS
syllabus is concerned
atleast bbay univ is making unix as std platform for
do lab practs. right
from FE.
no ofense intended but just trying to get across
some facts. i suggest u
discuss this with ur friend.
ask your friend to name all his favorite dev tools
under his favorite os.
now ask him does it run on mainframes,Servers,
desktops, pdas, watches,...
?
also a very good example is the bug patching
For your favortive OS
You pay $100s for OS , $100s for dev tools, $1000s
for databases, $100s for
office tools, $1000s for servers. that too with
restriction on num of users.
how well does it talk to other OSes. and must we say
anything abt security.
? then you pay huge sums for every release of ms
product. then if u get a
bug all u do for few mins is gaze at the beautiful
screen .
then you buy an update that will cost u another
$100's or so.
then you find out that the bug u r facing is
resolved in forthcoming
release, but still not all
and the viscous cycle continues. so effectively
solving a bug takes more
than 2-3 weeksin BEST CASE if patch is not there. at
times your bug is not
very important for ppl to bother to solve it. so
finally u have developed an
application with several compromises.
For Linux
You dont pay for the OS and with comes loads of free
dev tools, suites,
servers, databases, progarmming languages, name it
and it has it. which
takes atleast a month to unleash their basic
features.
with that u get the source code so that you can
tailor your OS to your
needs. if u find a bug all u do is correct the code
and recompile the
driver/kernel or whatever.
if u can figure out post querries to lug grps.
expect replies in few hrs.or
maybe some one has already patched it for u . so
ideally you have a bug
resolved in few days WORST CASE.
all the more if u develop a killer app or patch a
deadly bug you just might
find your code on the way to next release of linux.
also which os gives u
this level of h/w s/w control and flexibility.how
well does it talk to other
OSes
can his fav applications make all this possible ?
also acc to me linux is not for dumb users.
if u want to develop a game or a word pad it might
be easy, friendly in
windoz but what abt real time killer apps? what is
the stability of linx
servers and others ?
i guess philip, trevor and others can write more
abt technical issues..
what else... abt arts/sci/ comm ppl i guess they
have more exposure coz they
have more choices.
dont ever give a stupified look to such ppl ...
just tell them to try and experience the difference.
folks please react
take care
Harsh
_______________________________________________
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
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Amarendra Godbole (Intl Vendor)
2002-09-04 19:08:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tapeshwar Nath
windoz (dumb) ppl don't understand this , they are
addicted to it , they think windoz is GOD and Billu is
making money out of all this.
Both the OSes' exist irrespective of our opinion about them. IMHO, these
kind of statements are a bad advocacy. We should be `pro good' and not
`anti something.'

Just my 0.02 INR.

--amar

--
Amarendra A. Godbole / Microsoft ``Services For UNIX'' / These opinions
are _MINE_.
You are the sum total of the choices you make.
Q u a s i
2002-09-04 20:22:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikhil Joshi
I can only imagine what it must be like for Arts/Commerce/ ppl to
understand what is Linux
What makes you think that *all* CS BE students know what a computer is? I
have a friend with TCS who did his BE CS from VJTI and who surprises
me. And I know a few from Commerce/Arts who aint bad... not bad at all.

quasi
p.s.
Engg is a big joke. If you know what I mean...
;-D
Philip S Tellis
2002-09-04 20:51:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Q u a s i
There are a *lot* of people out there who dont want to be
awake at 2am trying to get something to work. They just want to
click, get a presentation done for tomorrow in 20 minutes and go to
powerpoint takes significantly more than 20 minutes to build a
presentation. more than a few hours actually. even then the
presentation isn't visible on an OHP because the person who built the
presentation doesn't understand the difference between a CRT and a
projector.
Post by Q u a s i
bed. I personally do all my programming in Linux (where lives emacs
:). But I still trip on winamp+tripex3 and surf the net with IE.
(X-windows suxx majorly.)
well, I use linux because it works better than anything else I've used,
and it looks better than anything else I've used. Yes, I use X a lot
when I'm at work, and it's painful to have to use a windows machine
after sitting at my system. The widgets look ugly, the colours are
terrible, the sharp edges I don't like, and the nasty double-clicking is
too much for me. I use Gnome as my DM and Mozilla as my browser.

I can watch movies full screen, and if only I could get a pair of
speakers in here, I could hear them too (my sound system is configured
correctly).
Post by Q u a s i
on any M$ products (maybe). But I, at leaset, do not come here because I
hate windows.
no, and neither should anyone else.
Post by Q u a s i
I feel very queasy when people want to jump on the Linux bandwagon
saying it is the coolest. It is indeed cool, but what is most important is
that it has the potential to be ~170 deg K.
hmmm... cool enough to get frostbite. ofcourse, if that's too cool for
some people, they could just switch themes, and linux would be hot!
--
"Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward"
-- William E. Davidsen
Sameer Shinde
2002-09-06 09:14:54 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, September 04, 2002 3:28 PM
Post by Philip S Tellis
powerpoint takes significantly more than 20 minutes to build a
presentation. more than a few hours actually.
A simple presentation can be done in less than 20 min. Ofcource
if you want to add some effects in that it'll take more time as *any*
creative work takes some time ( including programing )

even then the
Post by Philip S Tellis
presentation isn't visible on an OHP because the person who built the
presentation doesn't understand the difference between a CRT and a
projector.
Ordinary ppl don't bother abt that. They just want the show to be run
on his m/c & his friends m/c. That's all.
Post by Philip S Tellis
well, I use linux because it works better than anything else I've used,
and it looks better than anything else I've used. Yes, I use X a lot
when I'm at work, and it's painful to have to use a windows machine
after sitting at my system. The widgets look ugly, the colours are
terrible, the sharp edges I don't like,
Apply desktop thems or create your own. Use your own colors for
background, toolbar & so on....
Post by Philip S Tellis
and the nasty double-clicking is
too much for me.
Use web style for folders :)

I use Gnome as my DM and Mozilla as my browser.
Post by Philip S Tellis
I can watch movies full screen, and if only I could get a pair of
speakers in here, I could hear them too (my sound system is configured
correctly).
Yours, Not everybodys.( atleast not mine even after trying sndconfig ) Such
things doesn't happen in windows as the cards comes with ready drivers for
it.
You can plug-in dam any sound card in it & it works

Again one biggest issue of Internal modems, they are not supported
by linux ( although some but mejority of them are not)


Thanks & Regards,
SAMEER :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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A glass can be half full or half empty. It depends on your view
Tahir Hashmi
2002-09-06 18:12:54 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 6 Sep 2002 03:49:28 +0530
Post by Sameer Shinde
On Wednesday, September 04, 2002 3:28 PM
Post by Philip S Tellis
I can watch movies full screen, and if only I could get a pair of
speakers in here, I could hear them too (my sound system is
configured correctly).
Yours, Not everybodys.( atleast not mine even after trying sndconfig
) Such things doesn't happen in windows as the cards comes with
ready drivers for it.
You can plug-in dam any sound card in it & it works
That's not a merit of Windows or a demerit of Linux. That's the result
of Microsoft's monopolistic stranglehold on the market. You can run
"any dam" souncard in Windows because the vendor of that card ships
drivers for Windows with it. How many cards can you plug into WinXP
and run them without vendor provided software? BTW, some of the
reputed hardware vendors are now shipping Linux drivers with their
products, nVIDIA, for instance.
Post by Sameer Shinde
Again one biggest issue of Internal modems, they are not supported
by linux ( although some but mejority of them are not)
<quote>There are many so-called "winmodems" available now. In fact, it
seems that most PCI modems are winmodems</quote>
This is from the Modems page of Linux hardware HOWTO and explains it
all. Ever wondered why the price of an internal modem is a third that
of external ones? It's because these modems depend on the OS to do the
modulation/demodulation. Naturally, they'd like to depend on *Windows*
OS for the largest consumer base. Not only that, they are also slow
performers since execution in hardware is way faster than execution in
software for the same algorithm.

Using internal modems is a conscious choice made by the buyer and
almost always, he is aware of the cost difference between internal and
exetrnal modems. He asks the vendors what the difference between the
two is and the vendor bluntly says, "nothing"! That, dear luggers, is
the effect of Microsoft monopoly. Even if, say, 30% of the Desktops
had non-Windows OSes, the vendor would have known of the issue and
cautioned the buyer. The more you use Windows the more harm you cause
to yourself and the computer using community in general.

I agree that that X Windows is not the God of all GUI systems. Nor is
MS Windows' GUI. Not the Mac either. Everyone of them has
shortcomings. What hurts the most is that people use such generalized
and derogatory words as "suxx" to degrade the efforts of brilliant
programmers who are trying to make things better so that getting stuck
into a monopoly is not as "easy" or "natural" as it is today. The word
"suxx" has a really strong implication. I don't recall anyone saying
"Windows suxx" in this thread.

This brings us to the issue of criticizing Linux on this forum. Indeed
criticizing is positive but to what extent is some critique helpful?
Do we have anyone on this list who's directly involved with the
development of X or any of the Window Managers or Desktop
Environments? The best form of criticism is submitting bug reports to
the developers. That, dear users of Linux, is what makes you hope for
improvements in what you get.

This list also has people who are newbies and are here to get a clue.
What message do we send out to them when we make grossly subjective
statements about some rough edges of a part of Linux? And what message
do we send to them when we whine like losers against the monopoly that
Microsoft is? Linux may not be the best OS. Rather it *is not* the
best OS. But it is good enough for anyone who wants to break free from
the monopoly - and I mean _anyone_ when I say anyone.
--
Tahir Hashmi (VSE, NCST)
http://staff.ncst.ernet.in/tahir
tahir AT ncst DOT ernet DOT in

We, the rest of humanity, wish GNU luck and Godspeed
Q u a s i
2002-09-07 06:04:56 UTC
Permalink
I seem to have tread on many a toe here. But that never got me down... so
let me continue so that the cluless newbies you so mention at the end of
this mail get another opinion at least - and then they have a *choice* to
choose from... :)
That's not a merit of Windows or a demerit of Linux. That's the result of
Microsoft's monopolistic stranglehold on the market. You can run "any dam"
souncard in Windows because the vendor of that card ships drivers for
Windows with it. How many cards can you plug into WinXP
and run them without vendor provided software? BTW, some of the reputed
hardware vendors are now shipping Linux drivers with their products,
nVIDIA, for instance.
Because Linux user base is growing. Because it makes business sense. Not
because they have had a soft corner for the open people. If tomorrow
Windows user base shrinks to <1% I am sure these same vendors will stop
supporting it. Sure, Microsoft had a monopoly on the market, which is
changing now (thanks to open source), but *that* was the result of how our
society does business. Microsoft is not to blame. Did you know what it
costs for treatment of Hepatitis B treatment with top of the line US made
drugs? A couple of lakhs. So if my maid gets H-B tomorrow, she dies. She
dies even when the manufacturing cost of the drugs may be only a few
thousand rupees at the most. That is how the current world works. Sure is
not great. But...
I agree that that X Windows is not the God of all GUI systems. Nor is MS
Windows' GUI. Not the Mac either. Everyone of them has shortcomings. What
hurts the most is that people use such generalized and derogatory words as
"suxx" to degrade the efforts of brilliant programmers who are trying to
make things better so that getting stuck into a monopoly is not as "easy"
or "natural" as it is today. The word "suxx" has a really strong
implication. I don't recall anyone saying "Windows suxx" in this thread.
Ummmmm... I thought suxx was an infinitely more friendly term then the
cold "windows is good for nothing" quote by some senior member. I seem to
be on the Windows side, but if you (had) looked closer all I was doing was
arguing points against windows which were contrived (IMHO). I have been
using Linux for long and appreciate the "brilliant programmers" who are
doing a wonderful job by giving us their time. There was a time when for
long stretches I had only Linux running on my machine. I hated windows
95. But I loved M$Dos. I learned my programming on Dos and had the most
fun till date experimenting/hacking. I hated win 3.11 but I came to like
windows 98SE because in my experience it did what is does in a good
way. Is that a crime or is stating this in a Linux Group a Crime. Anyway
I mentioned in only as an aside. The argument started on some different
point altogether.
This brings us to the issue of criticizing Linux on this forum. Indeed
criticizing is positive but to what extent is some critique helpful?
All this thread and previous thread are about morality/ethics/philosophy
and are not technical for anyone to claim their correctness or
falsehood. These are also important as, much of what Linux is about, is
the philosophy.
Do we have anyone on this list who's directly involved with the
development of X or any of the Window Managers or Desktop Environments?
Does that mean only those who develop are supposed to talk about it? There
are developer mailing lists for that.
The best form of criticism is submitting bug reports to the developers.
That, dear users of Linux, is what makes you hope for improvements in what
you get.
I agree. But that is an action you should do, if you can. It has nothing
to do with a discussion here. But do you know that to send any worthwhile
bug report manually you need some technical competence? Sending "hey my X
hangs on startup" does not help. Most of the people who actually test and
report bugs closely follow the development.
This list also has people who are newbies and are here to get a
clue. What message do we send out to them when we make grossly subjective
statements about some rough edges of a part of Linux? And what message do
we send to them when we whine like losers against the monopoly that
Microsoft is?
More than that, the whining against "closed" software which is made out to
be evil.
Linux may not be the best OS. Rather it *is not* the best OS. But it is
good enough for anyone who wants to break free from the monopoly - and I
mean _anyone_ when I say anyone.
Amen ! (again, Amen !!)

quasi
p.s.
if I have tread on some sensitive toes, I say sorry and am willing to
compensate with some balm. ;-D

venkat mani
2002-09-04 21:27:01 UTC
Permalink
hey all


I'm doing my engineering in telecommunications. And i was quite amused(cause
none of them had actually seen the linux os in operation before) when a lot
of guys in my class turned out to be very eager to learn linux.They believe
that, and are right to a large extent that linux is the most suitable
platform for writing software which could be eventually used for future
networks.


I think a lot of us while explaining to other's about the linux os ,start
off with talking abt it being a free operating system i think this leads us
nowhere.Almost 95-99% of the home users i know use pirated win software and
do not pay for it. So i guess the argument of linux being free goes down the
drain.

I believe that rather than projecting linux as anti-windows or rival of the
windows os we should be looking at it as a very good viable alternative to
windows for certain or in some cases for all purposes.

regards
venky



----- Original Message -----
From: "Nikhil Joshi" <***@subdimension.com>
To: "Linuxers" <***@mm.ilug-bom.org.in>
Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 8:01 AM
Subject: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] Interesting Conversation
Post by Nikhil Joshi
Hi!
I had a conversation with my B.E. comp friend about Linux.
Basically he is doing a project in VC++
fr:So you are doing project in Linux right ?
me:yeah. C programming in Linux
fr:Oh,does Linux have VB,VC ?
me:No
fr:hmm... so will my VC programs run on Linux?
me:No
fr:Then what's the use of Linux?
I was stupified. (OK Windows programs can b emulated but still
they cannot 'run' right ?)
This is from a guy who had Operating Systems,System
Programming,Microprocessor in his syllabus
I guess the whole syllabus is 'DOS' oriented.
ppl still cannot digest the fact that there are many other compilers other
than the 'standard' Turbo C++ 3.0
Also I've observed that this is the general awareness/attitude of Comp.
ppl abt Linux.
I can only imagine what it must be like for Arts/Commerce/ ppl to
understand what is Linux
--
Nikhil
_______________________________________________
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Bhargav Bhatt
2002-09-04 22:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Adding on to what Harsh said, I would like to point out that most
universities across the world are beginning to adopt UNIX as the
standard platform for teaching programming.

Bhargav Bhatt
SEAS '05
Columbia University, New York.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 11:27 PM
Subject: [ILUG-BOM] Re: [OT] Interesting Conversation
hi nikhil .. what college are u from ? as far as CS syllabus
is concerned atleast bbay univ is making unix as std platform
for do lab practs. right from FE.
no ofense intended but just trying to get across some facts.
i suggest u discuss this with ur friend.
ask your friend to name all his favorite dev tools under his
favorite os. now ask him does it run on mainframes,Servers,
desktops, pdas, watches,... ?
also a very good example is the bug patching
For your favortive OS
You pay $100s for OS , $100s for dev tools, $1000s for
databases, $100s for office tools, $1000s for servers. that
too with restriction on num of users. how well does it talk
to other OSes. and must we say anything abt security. ? then
you pay huge sums for every release of ms product. then if u
get a bug all u do for few mins is gaze at the beautiful screen .
then you buy an update that will cost u another $100's or so.
then you find out that the bug u r facing is resolved in
forthcoming release, but still not all and the viscous cycle
continues. so effectively solving a bug takes more than 2-3
weeksin BEST CASE if patch is not there. at times your bug is
not very important for ppl to bother to solve it. so finally
u have developed an application with several compromises.
For Linux
You dont pay for the OS and with comes loads of free dev
tools, suites, servers, databases, progarmming languages,
name it and it has it. which takes atleast a month to
unleash their basic features.
with that u get the source code so that you can tailor your
OS to your needs. if u find a bug all u do is correct the
code and recompile the driver/kernel or whatever.
if u can figure out post querries to lug grps. expect replies
in few hrs.or maybe some one has already patched it for u .
so ideally you have a bug resolved in few days WORST CASE.
all the more if u develop a killer app or patch a deadly bug
you just might find your code on the way to next release of
linux. also which os gives u this level of h/w s/w control
and flexibility.how well does it talk to other OSes
can his fav applications make all this possible ?
also acc to me linux is not for dumb users.
if u want to develop a game or a word pad it might be easy,
friendly in windoz but what abt real time killer apps? what
is the stability of linx servers and others ?
i guess philip, trevor and others can write more abt
technical issues..
what else... abt arts/sci/ comm ppl i guess they have more
exposure coz they have more choices.
dont ever give a stupified look to such ppl ...
just tell them to try and experience the difference.
folks please react
take care
Harsh
_______________________________________________
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Bhargav Bhatt
2002-09-04 22:06:48 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Your second argument is flawed as products built with GCC and other Open
Source compilers "DO" run on Windows systems as well at they run on most
other systems. Hence such products, do, infact, have a larger scope in
the market when compared to products designed in software like VC++ etc.
Just my 2 cents worth.

Bhargav Bhatt
SEAS '05
Columbia University, New York.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] Interesting Conversation
(Playing devil's advocate here.)
:O yaa your program would only compile n run on Windoze.... while my
program just needs a lil tweak n can work on whole lot of
Architecture...gcc ....is the compiler which makes wonders... intel,
sparc, mac, name it n it will run on it .....
"Never heard of it. Why should I care? x% (x>90) computers in
the world run Windows. Servers? Haven't you heard of Windows NT?"
so your program is inferior compared to mine ;) ...
"But it works on more computers."
_______________________________________________
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Ravindra Jaju
2002-09-04 22:38:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bhargav Bhatt
Hi,
Your second argument is flawed as products built with GCC and other Open
Source compilers "DO" run on Windows systems as well at they run on most
other systems. Hence such products, do, infact, have a larger scope in
the market when compared to products designed in software like VC++ etc.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Correction: Not programs "built with GCC", but programs written in
standard C/C++/... and which "can be built with GCC¨ ( because
GCC is available for win-duhs too ... )
--
jaju
Amarendra Godbole (Intl Vendor)
2002-09-04 22:19:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bhargav Bhatt
Adding on to what Harsh said, I would like to point out that most
universities across the world are beginning to adopt UNIX as the
standard platform for teaching programming.
UNIX ? But that's closed source isn't it (at least the commercial
versions.) Was it s/UNIX/Linux that you meant to say ?

--amar

--
Amarendra A. Godbole / Microsoft ``Services For UNIX'' / These opinions
are _MINE_.
You are the sum total of the choices you make.
Philip S Tellis
2002-09-04 22:42:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bhargav Bhatt
Adding on to what Harsh said, I would like to point out that most
universities across the world are beginning to adopt UNIX as the
standard platform for teaching programming.
Umm, most universities with a computer science department (or even
electrical engineering for that matter) two decades ago used Unix as the
standard then. This was true in most places around the world.
--
It is through symbols that man consciously or unconsciously lives, works
and has his being.
-- Thomas Carlyle
Bhargav Bhatt
2002-09-04 22:44:25 UTC
Permalink
Correct on all counts!

Bhargav Bhatt
Department of Applied Mathematics and Applied Physics
SEAS '05
Columbia University, New York.
-----Original Message-----
Amarendra Godbole (Intl Vendor)
Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 4:41 AM
Subject: RE: [ILUG-BOM] Re: [OT] Interesting Conversation
Post by Bhargav Bhatt
Adding on to what Harsh said, I would like to point out that most
universities across the world are beginning to adopt UNIX as the
standard platform for teaching programming.
UNIX ? But that's closed source isn't it (at least the commercial
versions.) Was it s/UNIX/Linux that you meant to say ?
--amar
--
Amarendra A. Godbole / Microsoft ``Services For UNIX'' /
These opinions are _MINE_. You are the sum total of the
choices you make.
_______________________________________________
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Amol Hatwar
2002-09-04 23:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Q u a s i
Post by Tahir Hashmi
On Wed, 04 Sep 2002 15:05:35 +0530
Post by Q u a s i
I still trip on winamp+tripex3 and surf the net with IE.
(X-windows suxx majorly.)
Hold it, hold it. Circa June 2000, my Gnome + Enlightenment
desktop was a showcase that caused many a dropped jaws. I can
any day say without hesitation that Gnome (haven't used KDE) is
ages ahead of MS
We dont agree. I have had X all the time past 6 years. But I
have always found it be a substandard, and a rather ad-hoc GUI.
The need to keep it generic and portable has made the X
architecture excessively slow. They are bring in (supposedly)
cool things like DRI etc. we shall see... I have used Gnome
(Xamian & otherwise) and it has definitely come a long way but it
lacks smoothness and that crisp feel. First time I installed
enlightenment and the bluesteel theme even my jaw dropped to the
floor. But enlightenment has eye candy but is bulky and slack &
I dont like nor need all those frills while working. Sawfish is
fast but still not smooth enough. IceWM & FVWM2 were the best I
have used. Windows 98SE is *way* faster and smoother and
crispier (talking about the GUI only) especially when you take
away the web integration. In the past 2 years I am using it I
have got the arbit blue screen only 4 or 5 times. And I have
hung my xserver as many times too. Whatever you use, you have to
tweak it for better performance, aint it so dear Sir? We can all
equally say {quote}"I'm sorry, you probably never tried to go
beyond the default settings of your window manager."{/quote}
*cut*

Starting from XP onwards this will change. MS GUI will be more
idiot-friendly. Win98 SE is longer officially supported. Besides
that is your copy legal?

-Ah.
Philip S Tellis
2002-09-04 23:45:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Q u a s i
I dont need some site telling me which is better - I *use* IE6 and Mozilla
1.0 - Mozilla is good. Especially Galeon is very fast under Gnome (as it
I think what he meant was that IE cannot display all the features of
style sheets because it doesn't support them. IE is not a standards
compliant browser, although IE6 is probably the closest that they've
come.
--
"Your attitude determines your attitude."
-- Zig Ziglar, self-improvement doofus
Q u a s i
2002-09-05 00:24:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amol Hatwar
Starting from XP onwards this will change. MS GUI will be more
idiot-friendly. Win98 SE is longer officially supported. Besides that is
your copy legal?
which has absolutely nothing to do with the point at hand. I have, in the
first mail itself, said "for those who dont mind paying a few Kz to
M$" Looking at the cost of (professional) software a few Kz is dirt cheap.

please, underbelly blows dont prove any point.

quasi
Philip S Tellis
2002-09-05 00:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Q u a s i
If that comes to that, it is best to use transparencies and OHP marker
pens. That is why most of the dear lecturers at NCST do that.
Hmm, I use HTML generated by a CGI script reading from a text file. It
takes me 20 minutes to make my text file.
--
panic("Lucy in the sky....");
2.2.16 /usr/src/linux/arch/sparc64/kernel/starfire.c
Ravindra Jaju
2002-09-05 00:36:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip S Tellis
Post by Q u a s i
If that comes to that, it is best to use transparencies and OHP marker
pens. That is why most of the dear lecturers at NCST do that.
Hmm, I use HTML generated by a CGI script reading from a text file. It
takes me 20 minutes to make my text file.
I use a simple Perl script. Have a look at
http://www.it.iitb.ac.in/~jaju/tutorials/net/tcpip/
generated from the file
http://www.it.iitb.ac.in/~jaju/tutorials/net/tcpip/expanded.txt
( which contains HTML too ... )

You can supply a stylesheet from the command line, or else you get
plain 'white' pages ...

I can make the Perl script available if anyone wishes ....
--
jaju
Amol Hatwar
2002-09-05 00:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Q u a s i
Post by Philip S Tellis
Post by Q u a s i
click, get a presentation done for tomorrow in 20 minutes and
go to
powerpoint takes significantly more than 20 minutes to build a
presentation. more than a few hours actually. even then the
presentation isn't visible on an OHP because the person who
built the presentation doesn't understand the difference between
a CRT and a projector.
If that comes to that, it is best to use transparencies and OHP
marker pens. That is why most of the dear lecturers at NCST do
that.
Post by Philip S Tellis
well, I use linux because it works better than anything else
I've used, and it looks better than anything else I've used.
Yes, I use X a lot when I'm at work, and it's painful to have to
use a windows machine after sitting at my system. The widgets
look ugly, the colours are
terrible, the sharp edges I don't like, and the nasty
double-clicking is too much for me. I use Gnome as my DM and
Mozilla as my browser.
{grin} we surely have different tastes. But I guess the colours
bit is a bit too much dont you think? You can have whatever
colours you like, windows or x. In XP you get all sorts of
curves too, translucence, shadow, single clicks - all the works.
Even getting single clicking to win98 SE is a trivial 5 sec job.
Come come Sir, let us be unbiased.
I am not propagating M$ products.
I am not saying windows is better overall.
All I am saying is dont ignore the good points of M$. As I
mentioned earlier, M$ has had no qualms incorporating features
swiped from all over the place.
What makes windows bearable, too, are some super cool *free*
software available for it.
*chop*

Those are called give-aways. If you have paid for the software,
you have paid for the give-away in a way. If you haven't what you
are doing is illegal.
Post by Q u a s i
Anyway we can sit arguing like this forever. In the end, we get
used to and love what we use.
Yes, we could go on... But we should remember that we should only
do things that we love doing legally ;).

I may agree that Windows does give much more better performance
compared to Linux with respect to some areas. But then one must
also take several other things into account. If Linux was a built
like Windows it would be hundered times better, perhaps more
stable even.

You may like using MS today, but as how many people and I see it,
GNU/Linux will have the upperhand in the future. You can mark my
words for this one :).

Amol Hatwar.
Nikhil Joshi
2002-09-05 02:01:54 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 4 Sep 2002, Shishir wrote:

<snip>
Post by Shishir
I have been using Redhat since version 4.0 and recently switched over to
Mandrake 8.2. I have already fiddled around quite a bit with Mandrake,
Debian, Redhat, Suse, FreeBSD.
hey you r a veteren then :)
(I guess I started with RHL 5.2 or somethin ..)
Post by Shishir
I think it is all about the attitude. So what do you think now?
exactly .
Anywayz I was not trying to mean that non-science students are less
capable of knowing an OS.
It's just that they r not exposed to the environment that CS ppl are
exposed.
Nikhil Joshi
2002-09-05 02:03:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harsh R Busa
hi nikhil .. what college are u from ? as far as CS syllabus is concerned
atleast bbay univ is making unix as std platform for do lab practs. right
from FE.
I'm frm Datta Meghe COE Airoli ,Navi Mumbai
(umm... known as NYSS among the junta)
Actually our batch has Old syllabus (I remember working on
Lotus 123 and Dos in F.E. ah.... ;)

I guess the syllabus has been revised .Never visited the F.E. lab
afterwards. Our Electronics Dept. Lab *still* has Novell
Netware.

The comp. ppl still work *exclusively* on Windows.
OK there r some standalones having RHL
Also the F.E. ppl I think telnet to a server and 'use' Linux
(I don't know the intricacies of Networking but I know 4 sure that they
use Linux commands within Windows )

Anywayz (IMHO) the attitude of many F.E. ppl towards Unix:
join some crash course and get rid of the thing.
Post by Harsh R Busa
no ofense intended but just trying to get across some facts. i suggest u
discuss this with ur friend.
cool no prob
Post by Harsh R Busa
ask your friend to name all his favorite dev tools under his favorite os.
now ask him does it run on mainframes,Servers, desktops, pdas, watches,...
?
basically I guess the CS ppl hav a very nonchalant attitude towards Linux.
Their question is simple and striaghtforward ...
Will Linux give me money?
Frankly, I have to say not as much as Windows.
Post by Harsh R Busa
also acc to me linux is not for dumb users.
:)
Post by Harsh R Busa
dont ever give a stupified look to such ppl ...
just tell them to try and experience the difference.
Actually always wanted to organize a seminar or something on Linux.
I just dunno whether I'm capable/ 'guru' enuff to do such thing
AFAIK I'm the only one frm B.E. who knows quite a bit bout Linux.
Can ny1 guide pls.

P.S.
I always think that there's always something to learn about Linux
You can seldom say with certainty :I know Linux
Heck, is there a way to guage at what level I am in Linux ?
(Newbie,experienced,master,.... guru (no way in my case atleast ;)
Nikhil Joshi
2002-09-05 02:03:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip S Tellis
If he's using MFC in C++, then his programs won't work because the M in
MFC doesn't cooperate. Tell him it also won't work on any system that
doesn't have M's hand in it - which means his code will work only on
Windows - ie, he's locking himself in to one vendor.
Ironically that's the attitude of the ppl:
Hey if my app can run on more than 90% of the PC's why the heck shud I
give a damn 4 Linux ?

I mean when I look around and observe the apps:

The Encyclopedias,
MTNL Cdrom,
Various Educational CDs
VSNL dialer :(
Various Cd-roms that come with magazines.
GRE CDs

The list goes on and on..
Everything has Min sys req of Win9x.

In a way ,I guess, the CS ppl hav a valid point.
Post by Philip S Tellis
Post by Nikhil Joshi
I can only imagine what it must be like for Arts/Commerce/ ppl to
understand what is Linux
much easier, since they haven't been exposed to bad habits yet.
:D

--
Nikhil
Harsh R Busa
2002-09-05 17:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikhil Joshi
The Encyclopedias,
MTNL Cdrom,
Various Educational CDs
VSNL dialer :(
Various Cd-roms that come with magazines.
GRE CDs
lets face it .... winny dude has better and quickers tools to do jazzy
things.
also all the things u referred above are compiled considering the overall
audience.

look at mags like pcq that have an html interface that servers for both os.

soon the ppl adopt to openstandards quickers we will have more generic
applications.

see most of the apps u r talking abt are sort of the types whcih need to
idiot proof.
as yet linux is not for the dumb users. and dumb ppl who tend to use linux
eventualyl become smart. it may take time before linux rekons the desktop
market ...
but surely when u talk abt servers and killer apps ppl have resorted to
linux.

one more very important idea that i support is that Just Because Linux is
Good, Stable, Secure, Fast, and the Best; It doesnt mean that everyone on
the
planet must use it. There always should be some space for improvement ;)

take care
Harsh
Manish Jethani
2002-09-05 17:47:34 UTC
Permalink
Ironically that's the attitude of the ppl: Hey if my app can
run on more than 90% of the PC's why the heck shud I give a
damn 4 Linux ?
Because not all apps run on PC's, you see. Many/most enterprise
apps run on those "servers" running some kind of UNIX. It's
great to develop an app on Linux (cost advantage) and then with
a little tweaking compile and deploy it on another UNIX-like
system (Solaris, BSD, Linux/390, etc.) for your client. That's
what many software companies do! And that's also why these ppl
(w/ that attitude) find it difficult to get a job after passing
out.
The Encyclopedias,
MTNL Cdrom,
Various Educational CDs
VSNL dialer :(
Various Cd-roms that come with magazines.
GRE CDs
All these apps fall more or less in one category! Let the frog
out the well and see the world is bigger (and beautiful).
Everything has Min sys req of Win9x.
Everything? :-)

Manish
Nikhil Joshi
2002-09-05 02:04:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Q u a s i
Engg is a big joke. If you know what I mean...
;-D
u bet.
Q u a s i
2002-09-05 06:07:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amol Hatwar
Post by Q u a s i
What makes windows bearable, too, are some super cool *free* software
available for it.
*chop*
Those are called give-aways. If you have paid for the software, you have
paid for the give-away in a way. If you haven't what you are doing is illegal.
Again as I said, weather I own a licence is besides the point. I may be a
criminal. I may be pirating everything. I may be ripping DVD's. I even
have a plant in Cambodia mass manufacturing illegal CDz. But that is
irrelevant here, as *I* & my private business does not matter *here*. For
all you know I may be having a licensed version of Windows et.al.. So if
you want to go off on a tangent next time, please do so. I will choose to
remain on the circumference.
Post by Amol Hatwar
Post by Q u a s i
Anyway we can sit arguing like this forever. In the end, we get used to
and love what we use.
Yes, we could go on... But we should remember that we should only do
things that we love doing legally ;).
yah, they are waiting for you at Puri. You must consider that post
seriously. ;-D
Post by Amol Hatwar
I may agree that Windows does give much more better performance compared
to Linux with respect to some areas. But then one must also take several
other things into account. If Linux was a built like Windows it would be
hundered times better, perhaps more stable even.
If I was born a son to the Czar I might have been beheaded. What might
have been, is again irrelevant. I was speaking as of *today*.
Post by Amol Hatwar
You may like using MS today, but as how many people and I see it,
GNU/Linux will have the upperhand in the future. You can mark my words for
this one :).
Yes Sir. Surely I will die a slow death with my dear inseparable
windows. And you can rule the world happily ever after with the beautiful
princess.

Bah. All this beating the chest reminds me of MicroSoft. Totally.
"This is the best windows yet."
"Your programs will be run better than before"
"Your machine will be faster than before"
"Better support for your hardware" blah blah...

Sad.

The best thing one can do for X is to see the shortcomings. You think it
has come all this way without that? You can chuck you chest out about X in
front of outsiders. But at the LUG ?

bah.
Philip S Tellis
2002-09-05 15:14:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Q u a s i
On my X, Mozilla takes 10-15 seconds to start. Galeon takes
4-7. On my windows Netscape 6 took ~20 sec to load. Mozilla 6-10. IE
takes ~1 sec. It is not that I need IE, when in Linux I prefer Links.
IE takes 1 second because it is already loaded in memory. If you had
mozilla or netscape always loaded in memory, it too would take just
about 1 second to load. (Note, I'm not bashing anyone or anything,
simply stating a fact).
--
Two is not equal to three, even for large values of two.
Manish Jethani
2002-09-05 17:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip S Tellis
Post by Q u a s i
On my X, Mozilla takes 10-15 seconds to start.
Galeon takes
4-7. On my windows Netscape 6 took ~20 sec to load. Mozilla
6-10. IE
takes ~1 sec. It is not that I need IE, when in Linux I
prefer Links.
IE takes 1 second because it is already loaded in memory. If
you had mozilla or netscape always loaded in memory, it too
would take just about 1 second to load. (Note, I'm not
bashing anyone or anything, simply stating a fact).
I'm using mozilla 1.0 on windows and I keep it always loaded in
memory (quick launch). The browser window takes less than 1
second to come up.

Manish
Parul Mathur
2002-09-05 15:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 19:29:36 +0530
Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] Re: [OT] Interesting Conversation
On Wed, Sep 04, 2002 at 07:09:02PM +0530, Philip S Tellis
Post by Philip S Tellis
Hmm, I use HTML generated by a CGI script reading from a text
file. It
Post by Philip S Tellis
takes me 20 minutes to make my text file.
I use a simple Perl script.
You can supply a stylesheet from the command line, or else you
get
plain 'white' pages ...
I can make the Perl script available if anyone wishes ....
--
jaju
Dear Philip,

I was very impressed when I first saw you using those HTML
files as "slides". When I left NCST and joined my
present company, I made a stylesheet that mimicked
the company standard for PPTs. To make individual "slides"
I would manually and laboriously make several copies of
the first "slide" and then edit it... you get the picture.

So I would be really grateful if you could make your CGI script
available for download on your website. Could you also make
a non-CGI version available for use on the command line?

Thanks.


Dear Jaju,

I was equally impressed by your tutorial at
http://www.it.iitb.ac.in/~jaju/tutorials/net/tcpip/node1.html
I was using IE6 at that time (800 x 600 resolution) and for some
reason the text in the "slide" on the right seemed too big;
I tried to change the text size to "Smallest" but there was
no effect. Something wrong with IE?

In any case, your Perl script would be very welcome too.
Instructions for use would also be very helpful.

Thanks.

Parul
Tahir Hashmi
2002-09-05 15:40:57 UTC
Permalink
On 5 Sep 2002 04:53:32 -0000
Post by Parul Mathur
I tried to change the text size to "Smallest" but there was
no effect. Something wrong with IE?
IE doesn't scale fonts if they're specified in pixels. Maybe that's
the reason. Galeon's zoom feature scores here :-) Mozilla also gets it
right.
--
Tahir Hashmi (VSE, NCST)
http://staff.ncst.ernet.in/tahir
tahir AT ncst DOT ernet DOT in

We, the rest of humanity, wish GNU luck and Godspeed
Ravindra Jaju
2002-09-05 17:29:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Parul Mathur
I was using IE6 at that time (800 x 600 resolution) and for some
reason the text in the "slide" on the right seemed too big;
I tried to change the text size to "Smallest" but there was
no effect. Something wrong with IE?
Well, my HTML errs too .... I used a style-file which just
suited my mozilla/resolution and the projector I used. It's just a matter
of getting the stylefile right, which you can supply on
the command line.

Will make it available after writing some comments
in it on how to use it ..
--
jaju
Philip S Tellis
2002-09-05 15:53:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tahir Hashmi
Post by Parul Mathur
I tried to change the text size to "Smallest" but there was
no effect. Something wrong with IE?
IE doesn't scale fonts if they're specified in pixels. Maybe that's
It's not supposed to - according to the specs. pixels are absolute
sizes and MUST NOT be scaled. A point is also an absolute size, but,
may be different in different resolutions.

If you want your fonts to be scaled, then use %, em, en, ex. These are
all relative sizes based on the container's value. For the top level,
the container is the browser.
Post by Tahir Hashmi
the reason. Galeon's zoom feature scores here :-) Mozilla also gets it
The zoom feature isn't scaling fonts, it is more like holding a
magnifying glass up in front of the page. In this sense, both galeon
and mozilla fail since they scale only the text on the page and not the
images. Opera on the other hand scales every darn thing it can find,
and I have not noticed any loss in image quality even after a 400% zoom.
--
Xerox does it again and again and again and ...
Philip S Tellis
2002-09-05 16:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Parul Mathur
So I would be really grateful if you could make your CGI script
available for download on your website. Could you also make
a non-CGI version available for use on the command line?
http://staff.ncst.ernet.in/~philip/downloads/slide-template.tar.gz

There's two steps to it.

You first create a text file (like all-in-one.txt that I have). You can
call it anything you want. It doesn't even have to have the .txt
extension.

Most html would go in there, and what goes in is what comes out. You
ideally don't want any headers.

Once you've made your text file, do this:

cat slide-text-file | ./parse-slides.pl

This will create files called slide1.shtml, slide2.shtml...

you can change the head of the file by passing a parameter to
parse-slides.pl:

cat slide-text-file | ./parse-slides.pl slide-

will create slide-1.shtml...

Note that the TOC will not work unless it is called slide1.shtml...

You should also edit header.shtml and index.shtml to suit your needs.

And make sure your webserver has the Includes feature turned on for this
directory (IncludesNoExec will not work).

You can point your browser to the shtml files to view it.

Now, something cool. If you want to give the presentation, but you want
others to be able to see the slides on their terminals, then tell
everyone else to point their browsers to the file called current.shtml.

This file will always show the current slide that you're viewing - with
a ~5 second delay.

This is really useful if you're doing the presentation over a video
conference link, and video images of your slides don't look so good.
Just tell the remote end to have current.shtml on their projector/PCs.

Requirements:

perl, sed, grep, sort, apache

yeah, i could drop the need for sed, grep and sort, but it would lose
its coolness factor.
--
"Would I turn on the gas if my pal Mugsy were in there?"
"You might, rabbit, you might!"
-- Looney Tunes, Bugs and Thugs (1954, Friz Freleng)
Amol Hatwar
2002-09-05 18:09:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harsh R Busa
planet must use it. There always should be some space for
improvement ;)
true... but i refuse to let loose my purse strings for patchy
software from MS.

-Amol.
Philip S Tellis
2002-09-06 18:00:48 UTC
Permalink
A simple presentation can be done in less than 20 min. Ofcource if you
want to add some effects in that it'll take more time as *any*
creative work takes some time ( including programing )
exactly my point. so this is not a crib between windows and linux, it's
a crib against people throwing in special effects simply because they
exist. consider for a moment how much higher world productivity would
be if powerpoint did not exist (at least all the effects in ppt).
Ordinary ppl don't bother abt that. They just want the show to be run
on his m/c & his friends m/c. That's all.
If you go to a client's place to display your product, your slides had
better work on his system. Even if you carry your laptop, you still
need to view it in his premisis, with his projector, screen and
lighting.
Again one biggest issue of Internal modems, they are not supported by
linux ( although some but mejority of them are not)
actually, it is the other way round. the modems do not support linux.
--
The only person who always got his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe.
Philip S Tellis
2002-09-06 18:01:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sameer Shinde
Some ppl say that Linux is free & so not is windows. But can they tell
free as in free speech. it's not the cost that matters. it's what you
can do with it. with linux I have the freedom to study, modify and
redistribute the source code. with windows i don't have that freedom.
therefore...
Post by Sameer Shinde
me what wod they have done if linux & all of its goodies were also not
i would not have used linux if it were not free in the free speech
sense, and...
Post by Sameer Shinde
free? They say windows is buggy, even I say. But then everything have
some bugs ( even human beings ) Nothing is perfect. We are developer
even linux has bugs, but since I have the source code, *I* can fix those
bugs, instead of waiting for the manufacturers to fix them. Ok, suppose
I'm not a programmer and cannot fix the bugs. The fact is that since
everyone has access to the source, there must be at least 1 person in
the world who can and will fix the bug and return the fix to the
manufacturers, who in turn will send it to me. The mean time between
bug finding and fixing in this case is of the order of 1 day max
(although as little as 10 minutes has been known). If we remember the
2.4.11 kernel which had a few bugs in it. 2.4.12 was released 30
minutes after 2.4.11 - with the bugs fixed.
Post by Sameer Shinde
I/we do some sort of programming & need to test it on different OS But
for a general user who is only interested in playing games, surfing
web & doing some work in word excel. Why should he swithch to any
other OS if he is getting MS for free ( pirated )? There is no reason
he shouldn't unless his concience keeps worrying him.
--
If a man had a child who'd gone anti-social, killed perhaps, he'd still
tend to protect that child.
-- McCoy, "The Ultimate Computer", stardate 4731.3
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